6 ms·

TLDR: 1. Strong foreign language skills from overseas missions. 2. It's easier getting them security clearances since they don't use drugs or alcohol.

pelagicAustral 3y ago
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Burn After Reading. From Osborne Cox when being dismissed from his job as an analyst: > I have a drinking problem? Fuck you, Peck! You're a Mormon! Next to you, we all have a drinking problem!
sidewndr46 3y ago
Lots of people think this means "don't smoke" or something like that. From the members I have conversed with, they are forbidden from using caffeine.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Coffee and black/green tea are typically considered to be prohibited (I know active members who drink green tea and still participate fully), but caffeine in general isn't banned. One of the apostles even acknowledged drinking a whole lot of diet coke to help while learning to use a computer[0]: > It took a great deal of time, repetition, patience; no small amount of hope and faith; lots of reassurance from my wife; and many liters of a diet soda that shall remain nameless. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/o-how-great-the-plan-of-our-god?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    I'm not a member, just going off what they told me. From what I understand the actual edicts (maybe it's called something) else aren't really supposed to be published or talked about. So I've only talked to ex-mormons about this.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. There are a whole lot of people who have their own interpretations of the commandments, and that coupled with our history of secrecy surrounding the temple could definitely give rise to the idea that it's difficult to know what all the requirements are, but it's all online and available to everyone at this point. Here's the relevant information about the health code[1]: > The Lord revealed in the Word of Wisdom that the following substances are harmful: > Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). > Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). > Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-e... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
      - csdvrx 3y ago
        I've checked the website and it's easy to get lost clicking around like on tvtropes.org > I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. Great! So here's a very legit question: is there a PDF version that I could read linearly to get a good idea of the whole doctrine? (I mean something like the Talmud) I'm just curious and want to learn.
        lolinder 3y ago
        It's obviously very difficult to compress any religion's doctrines down into an easily digestible form, but the pamphlets used by the missionaries do a pretty good job of summarizing the most important points [0]. Beyond that, the Gospel Topics[1] section is, as you found, a bit of a rabbit hole, but contains the church's official stance on any topic where they've taken a stance. If you can't find it there, it's likely that there isn't an official consensus. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-callings/mission-callings/teaching-pamphlets https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-call... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
- seanw444 3y ago
  It depends on the family. My girlfriend wasn't allowed to drink any caffeine when she was a kid. Caffeine was normal in my family though. Coffee is pretty universally frowned upon (I don't get it either). Apparently Mtn Dew > Coffee as it pertains to health. They base their dietary standard on the "Word of Wisdom". Source: grew up Mormon, and still have a close relationship with my Mormon family.
- specialist 3y ago
  Opinions differ. Best as I can tell, like all other dogmas, their rules are some blend of urban legends, game of telephone, and calvinball. eg The nephew of the owner, prepping for his missionary work, gravely explained to me that he has to be careful not to immerse himself in open waters (or maybe it was just moving water) past the belt line. Something about being vulnerable to witches or demonic possession or whatever. And it was totally true because his cousin's best friend knew a guy who swam while on mission and then died.
  - nocoolnametom 3y ago
    I'm guessing you've gotten some downvotes for this probably because this is recognized as a pretty bizarre belief, and one most modern Mormons do not follow or aren't even aware of. Since Mormonism almost never repudiates the teachings of their past leadership, it merely stops reinforcing old and odd teachings, you'll always be able to find at least a few members who still know about and hold beliefs that the rest of the membership has either forgotten or have never been taught. The particular belief in question here arises from modern LDS scripture (D&C 61) where God says to a group of early LDS missionaries that "there are many dangers upon the waters." These dangers are from Satan being given power over the waters as the world approaches Armageddon, and while faithful LDS missionaries will be preserved while traveling over any water (canal, lake, sea, etc) they're encouraged not to risk it if their faith is not strong enough. This used to be a pretty common teaching from leadership, but in recent decades it's fallen out of fashion. Missionaries are still forbidden from going swimming at any point during their missions, but usually it's presented as a result of insurance dangers facing unsupervised 18 year olds (which, let's be honest, is an entirely reasonable and accurate concern). For almost every weird or odd belief you've heard that at least some Mormons believe, there are usually a combination of scriptures and old leadership quotes behind it, but the modern teachings have left them behind with the hope that if these odd teachings are ignored they'll go away (which works out pretty well, for the most part).
    - mrkstu 3y ago
      This is mostly an issue of the hierarchal/revelatory nature of the church. If every folk belief held by any Pope or Church Father was held as a controlling 'belief' of the Catholic Church, it'd spin apart instantly via the contradictions. The 'Mormon' church has to deal with the contradiction of near-infallibility of its leaders with their very human frailties and willingness to opine on things without much knowledge. Considering their need to weld together tens of thousands of converts under murder, oppression, and official government endorsement of their extermination, it was understandable they needed to centralize a belief in their leadership in order to survive. Climbing down from that philosophy has been understandably fraught and drawn out.
- nocoolnametom 3y ago
  The caffeine thing is a long-standing internal debate that arises from: 1. Unclear doctrinal specifics 2. An orthopraxic rather than an orthodoxic culture The first item is that the only doctrine possibly relating to caffeine is a single verse in modern scripture that says "hot drinks are not for the body or belly". Long-standing teaching by leadership has merely narrowed down "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee. The second item is by far more important in the debate: Mormons are _highly_ orthopraxic, meaning that you're usually free to hold heterodox doctrinal beliefs as long as your public life and behavior reflects the common orthopraxy. Or, to put it simply, the public appearance of righteousness is culturally far more important than internal doctrinal beliefs (this is, ironically enough, not technically doctrinal). The same chapter that defines "hot drinks" (coffee/tea) as not good for the belly defines beer ("barley... for mild drinks") as entirely appropriate, but since the orthopraxic behavior is to be seen as avoiding coffee, tea, hard liquor (which is specifically called out in the same scripture) then avoiding anything above and beyond those is often seen as an increased sign of righteousness. So you'll often have arguments between Mormons who follow the letter of the law and others who follow what they define as the spirit of the law. And since coffee and tea both contain caffeine then many Mormons will avoid caffeine as well. You'll find this same argument about following just the doctrine defined in the open canon versus following behavioral practices above and beyond it in other aspects of Mormon life, such as: not calling members of the church or the church "Mormon," payment of 10% of monthly income (though the scriptures call for 10% of an annual "increase"), women only wearing at most one set of earrings, no dating for youth below the age of 16, men applying to serve missions the instant their 18th birthday arrives (though the window for honorable service is many years wide), no clapping in meetings, no drums or brass in meetings, and so on for many other cultural practices. This is, as you can probably recognize from some of the items in that list, in no way a phenomenon isolated to the LDS religion, but it does inform the inevitable debate you'll hear if you ever bring up caffeine in a group of Mormons.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    For others gaining a new vocabulary word today: > Orthopraxic v. orthodoxic: In the study of religion, orthopraxy is correct conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace.[1][2][3] Orthopraxy is in contrast with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief. The word is a neoclassical compound—ὀρθοπραξία (orthopraxia) meaning 'right practice'. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy
- irrational 3y ago
  It's not caffeine. It's coffee, black/green tea, and alcohol. Soda has caffeine and is seen as okay. Think of it as Jewish Kosher or Muslim Halal.
tyingq 3y ago
Probably something also about similar views about a moral high ground.
ttpphd 3y ago
3. Mormons are overwhelmingly white and come from a cultural background of conservative patriarchal Christian whiteness which comports with the historical and present culture of the FBI.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  You left out “heirarchical authoritarian”, but, yeah, that.
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  You're using Christian way too much to describe Mormons. I am pretty sure most Christians aren't going to see Mormonism as a plus.
  - haradion 3y ago
    By mainstream Christian standards, the doctrine is, quite frankly, "heretical", but members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the primary branch of "Mormonism") very much consider themselves Christian, have values that align strongly with many other Christian denominations, place Christ at the center of their doctrine, etc. In my opinion, culturally, we're a lot more Christian than the typical perception would suggest. That being said, we've got our own offshoot groups that we don't consider "really Mormon", so I get where people are coming from on that question.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    They shouldn't be considered christians, but in the voting booth, they vote for the same thing that evangelicals do.
- seanw444 3y ago
  Which is funny because most Mormons I know dislike the FBI specifically because their actions as of late are directly in opposition to their beliefs.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
pavon 3y ago
I would add that their culture is a good match. They are Lawful Good through and through. Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts (until a recent split as BSA became more inclusive), and are raised to have a strong sense of duty to their church, country and community.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - intimidated 3y ago
    I am extremely not Mormon, but we don't have any reason to believe Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers than Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. It's probably more politically safe to claim Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers, but I wouldn't feel any less safe leaving my children with a Mormon family than with a Jewish family, a Muslim family, or a Hindu family.
    - gibolt 3y ago
      Pretty sure you could just say any family...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts In western states, yes. In the east it ran from supportive to apathetic to passive-aggressively hostile. In some councils, the split wasn't all bad for the BSA.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    Other denominations are now starting to follow suit and declining to renew charters or lease space to the BSA.
jimmar 3y ago
3rd mentioned in the was a willingness to serve. Having grown up Mormon, I'd add a 4th that wasn't mentioned in the article: deference to authority. The Mormon church is a very hierarchal organization. Orders go from the top down. People lower on the ladder should not ever contradict their leaders. When a Mormon leader asks you to do something, you expected to comply. I imagine that this mindset would make you fit in well in the FBI, at least in the lower and middle layers of the organization.

pelagicAustral 3y ago

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Burn After Reading. From Osborne Cox when being dismissed from his job as an analyst: > I have a drinking problem? Fuck you, Peck! You're a Mormon! Next to you, we all have a drinking problem!

sidewndr46 3y ago

Lots of people think this means "don't smoke" or something like that. From the members I have conversed with, they are forbidden from using caffeine.

lolinder 3y ago
Coffee and black/green tea are typically considered to be prohibited (I know active members who drink green tea and still participate fully), but caffeine in general isn't banned. One of the apostles even acknowledged drinking a whole lot of diet coke to help while learning to use a computer[0]: > It took a great deal of time, repetition, patience; no small amount of hope and faith; lots of reassurance from my wife; and many liters of a diet soda that shall remain nameless. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/o-how-great-the-plan-of-our-god?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  I'm not a member, just going off what they told me. From what I understand the actual edicts (maybe it's called something) else aren't really supposed to be published or talked about. So I've only talked to ex-mormons about this.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. There are a whole lot of people who have their own interpretations of the commandments, and that coupled with our history of secrecy surrounding the temple could definitely give rise to the idea that it's difficult to know what all the requirements are, but it's all online and available to everyone at this point. Here's the relevant information about the health code[1]: > The Lord revealed in the Word of Wisdom that the following substances are harmful: > Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). > Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). > Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-e... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
    - csdvrx 3y ago
      I've checked the website and it's easy to get lost clicking around like on tvtropes.org > I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. Great! So here's a very legit question: is there a PDF version that I could read linearly to get a good idea of the whole doctrine? (I mean something like the Talmud) I'm just curious and want to learn.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        It's obviously very difficult to compress any religion's doctrines down into an easily digestible form, but the pamphlets used by the missionaries do a pretty good job of summarizing the most important points [0]. Beyond that, the Gospel Topics[1] section is, as you found, a bit of a rabbit hole, but contains the church's official stance on any topic where they've taken a stance. If you can't find it there, it's likely that there isn't an official consensus. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-callings/mission-callings/teaching-pamphlets https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-call... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
seanw444 3y ago
It depends on the family. My girlfriend wasn't allowed to drink any caffeine when she was a kid. Caffeine was normal in my family though. Coffee is pretty universally frowned upon (I don't get it either). Apparently Mtn Dew > Coffee as it pertains to health. They base their dietary standard on the "Word of Wisdom". Source: grew up Mormon, and still have a close relationship with my Mormon family.
specialist 3y ago
Opinions differ. Best as I can tell, like all other dogmas, their rules are some blend of urban legends, game of telephone, and calvinball. eg The nephew of the owner, prepping for his missionary work, gravely explained to me that he has to be careful not to immerse himself in open waters (or maybe it was just moving water) past the belt line. Something about being vulnerable to witches or demonic possession or whatever. And it was totally true because his cousin's best friend knew a guy who swam while on mission and then died.
- nocoolnametom 3y ago
  I'm guessing you've gotten some downvotes for this probably because this is recognized as a pretty bizarre belief, and one most modern Mormons do not follow or aren't even aware of. Since Mormonism almost never repudiates the teachings of their past leadership, it merely stops reinforcing old and odd teachings, you'll always be able to find at least a few members who still know about and hold beliefs that the rest of the membership has either forgotten or have never been taught. The particular belief in question here arises from modern LDS scripture (D&C 61) where God says to a group of early LDS missionaries that "there are many dangers upon the waters." These dangers are from Satan being given power over the waters as the world approaches Armageddon, and while faithful LDS missionaries will be preserved while traveling over any water (canal, lake, sea, etc) they're encouraged not to risk it if their faith is not strong enough. This used to be a pretty common teaching from leadership, but in recent decades it's fallen out of fashion. Missionaries are still forbidden from going swimming at any point during their missions, but usually it's presented as a result of insurance dangers facing unsupervised 18 year olds (which, let's be honest, is an entirely reasonable and accurate concern). For almost every weird or odd belief you've heard that at least some Mormons believe, there are usually a combination of scriptures and old leadership quotes behind it, but the modern teachings have left them behind with the hope that if these odd teachings are ignored they'll go away (which works out pretty well, for the most part).
  - mrkstu 3y ago
    This is mostly an issue of the hierarchal/revelatory nature of the church. If every folk belief held by any Pope or Church Father was held as a controlling 'belief' of the Catholic Church, it'd spin apart instantly via the contradictions. The 'Mormon' church has to deal with the contradiction of near-infallibility of its leaders with their very human frailties and willingness to opine on things without much knowledge. Considering their need to weld together tens of thousands of converts under murder, oppression, and official government endorsement of their extermination, it was understandable they needed to centralize a belief in their leadership in order to survive. Climbing down from that philosophy has been understandably fraught and drawn out.
nocoolnametom 3y ago
The caffeine thing is a long-standing internal debate that arises from: 1. Unclear doctrinal specifics 2. An orthopraxic rather than an orthodoxic culture The first item is that the only doctrine possibly relating to caffeine is a single verse in modern scripture that says "hot drinks are not for the body or belly". Long-standing teaching by leadership has merely narrowed down "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee. The second item is by far more important in the debate: Mormons are _highly_ orthopraxic, meaning that you're usually free to hold heterodox doctrinal beliefs as long as your public life and behavior reflects the common orthopraxy. Or, to put it simply, the public appearance of righteousness is culturally far more important than internal doctrinal beliefs (this is, ironically enough, not technically doctrinal). The same chapter that defines "hot drinks" (coffee/tea) as not good for the belly defines beer ("barley... for mild drinks") as entirely appropriate, but since the orthopraxic behavior is to be seen as avoiding coffee, tea, hard liquor (which is specifically called out in the same scripture) then avoiding anything above and beyond those is often seen as an increased sign of righteousness. So you'll often have arguments between Mormons who follow the letter of the law and others who follow what they define as the spirit of the law. And since coffee and tea both contain caffeine then many Mormons will avoid caffeine as well. You'll find this same argument about following just the doctrine defined in the open canon versus following behavioral practices above and beyond it in other aspects of Mormon life, such as: not calling members of the church or the church "Mormon," payment of 10% of monthly income (though the scriptures call for 10% of an annual "increase"), women only wearing at most one set of earrings, no dating for youth below the age of 16, men applying to serve missions the instant their 18th birthday arrives (though the window for honorable service is many years wide), no clapping in meetings, no drums or brass in meetings, and so on for many other cultural practices. This is, as you can probably recognize from some of the items in that list, in no way a phenomenon isolated to the LDS religion, but it does inform the inevitable debate you'll hear if you ever bring up caffeine in a group of Mormons.
- freedomben 3y ago
  For others gaining a new vocabulary word today: > Orthopraxic v. orthodoxic: In the study of religion, orthopraxy is correct conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace.[1][2][3] Orthopraxy is in contrast with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief. The word is a neoclassical compound—ὀρθοπραξία (orthopraxia) meaning 'right practice'. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy
irrational 3y ago
It's not caffeine. It's coffee, black/green tea, and alcohol. Soda has caffeine and is seen as okay. Think of it as Jewish Kosher or Muslim Halal.

tyingq 3y ago

Probably something also about similar views about a moral high ground.

ttpphd 3y ago

3. Mormons are overwhelmingly white and come from a cultural background of conservative patriarchal Christian whiteness which comports with the historical and present culture of the FBI.

dragonwriter 3y ago
You left out “heirarchical authoritarian”, but, yeah, that.
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
You're using Christian way too much to describe Mormons. I am pretty sure most Christians aren't going to see Mormonism as a plus.
- haradion 3y ago
  By mainstream Christian standards, the doctrine is, quite frankly, "heretical", but members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the primary branch of "Mormonism") very much consider themselves Christian, have values that align strongly with many other Christian denominations, place Christ at the center of their doctrine, etc. In my opinion, culturally, we're a lot more Christian than the typical perception would suggest. That being said, we've got our own offshoot groups that we don't consider "really Mormon", so I get where people are coming from on that question.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  They shouldn't be considered christians, but in the voting booth, they vote for the same thing that evangelicals do.
seanw444 3y ago
Which is funny because most Mormons I know dislike the FBI specifically because their actions as of late are directly in opposition to their beliefs.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

pavon 3y ago

I would add that their culture is a good match. They are Lawful Good through and through. Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts (until a recent split as BSA became more inclusive), and are raised to have a strong sense of duty to their church, country and community.

whalesalad 3y ago
[flagged]
- intimidated 3y ago
  I am extremely not Mormon, but we don't have any reason to believe Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers than Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. It's probably more politically safe to claim Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers, but I wouldn't feel any less safe leaving my children with a Mormon family than with a Jewish family, a Muslim family, or a Hindu family.
  - gibolt 3y ago
    Pretty sure you could just say any family...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts In western states, yes. In the east it ran from supportive to apathetic to passive-aggressively hostile. In some councils, the split wasn't all bad for the BSA.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Other denominations are now starting to follow suit and declining to renew charters or lease space to the BSA.

jimmar 3y ago

3rd mentioned in the was a willingness to serve. Having grown up Mormon, I'd add a 4th that wasn't mentioned in the article: deference to authority. The Mormon church is a very hierarchal organization. Orders go from the top down. People lower on the ladder should not ever contradict their leaders. When a Mormon leader asks you to do something, you expected to comply. I imagine that this mindset would make you fit in well in the FBI, at least in the lower and middle layers of the organization.