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If you use cash, the “government” does not know where you spend it. If you use a credit card, it’s a virtual certainty that they do already.

by jen20 4y ago

_heimdall 4y ago
For cash transactions, I believe anything over $600 is supposed to be reported now. The limit used to be $10k but was raised recently. With credit cards, the government shouldn't know as they shouldn't be involved, but they almost certainly do because overreach. Congress could always pass a law to block that or an individual could sue and claim something similar to illegal search. As soon as the government is the bank there's no way to bifricate the two, the deal is done.
- zamnos 4y ago
  > The implementation of the Internal Revenue Service's "$600 rule" is being postponed until next year https://www.cnbc.com/amp/select/irs-600-reporting-rule-delayed/ https://www.cnbc.com/amp/select/irs-600-reporting-rule-delay... (From Feb 2023)
  - _heimdall 4y ago
    Didn't realize that got delayed, thanks! Guess that's good for this year but doesn't help long term.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  >Congress could always pass a law to block that or an individual could sue and claim something similar to illegal search. Nah, we'd see any lawsuits over violations of such a law get blocked due to standing issues or state secrets privilege, much like the lawsuits over the illegal and unconstitutional surveillance performed by the NSA.
  - _heimdall 4y ago
    Whether the system would allow a new law to protect our rights is a bit of a different issue. Structurally such a law could only exist if the government doesn't already own the bank.
- reaperman 4y ago
  Government knows your credit card transactions not necessarily just due to generic overreach but also specifically "Third party doctrine". Various companies sell your near-realtime transaction data and it's generally available to data brokers and it's not clear why the government shouldn't be able to buy your data from data brokers.
opportune 4y ago
I’m not certain it’s being done for 100% of bills, but it would be easy to track any single bill between being withdrawn from an atm/bank and re-entering one by noting the serial number and account number as it comes and goes. Exchanges will certainly happen between withdrawals and deposits, but still your privacy is only preserved when neither of your counterparties withdraw/deposit the bill
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Tell me how much harder and less reliable it is to track billions of individual serialized objects over time vs. a database transaction.
  - techdragon 4y ago
    I always just assumed that somewhere in the banknotes lifecycle those serial numbers are all getting written into a database… I kind of assumed that based on examples where the government was able to trace where large amounts of cash had come from and what it got spent on when doing major crime investigations or things like DB Cooper and how confidently they proclaim that none of the cash (that wasn’t “lost” and then found by various searches or the public over the years) was ever spent. I assumed it was probably part of obligatory regulations to do with money laundering or something equivalent and thus they all had to do it.

If you use cash, the “government” does not know where you spend it. If you use a credit card, it’s a virtual certainty that they do already.

by jen20 4y ago

If you use cash, the “government” does not know where you spend it. If you use a credit card, it’s a virtual certainty that they do already.

_heimdall 4y ago

For cash transactions, I believe anything over $600 is supposed to be reported now. The limit used to be $10k but was raised recently. With credit cards, the government shouldn't know as they shouldn't be involved, but they almost certainly do because overreach. Congress could always pass a law to block that or an individual could sue and claim something similar to illegal search. As soon as the government is the bank there's no way to bifricate the two, the deal is done.

zamnos 4y ago
> The implementation of the Internal Revenue Service's "$600 rule" is being postponed until next year https://www.cnbc.com/amp/select/irs-600-reporting-rule-delayed/ https://www.cnbc.com/amp/select/irs-600-reporting-rule-delay... (From Feb 2023)
- _heimdall 4y ago
  Didn't realize that got delayed, thanks! Guess that's good for this year but doesn't help long term.
HideousKojima 4y ago
>Congress could always pass a law to block that or an individual could sue and claim something similar to illegal search. Nah, we'd see any lawsuits over violations of such a law get blocked due to standing issues or state secrets privilege, much like the lawsuits over the illegal and unconstitutional surveillance performed by the NSA.
- _heimdall 4y ago
  Whether the system would allow a new law to protect our rights is a bit of a different issue. Structurally such a law could only exist if the government doesn't already own the bank.
reaperman 4y ago
Government knows your credit card transactions not necessarily just due to generic overreach but also specifically "Third party doctrine". Various companies sell your near-realtime transaction data and it's generally available to data brokers and it's not clear why the government shouldn't be able to buy your data from data brokers.

opportune 4y ago

I’m not certain it’s being done for 100% of bills, but it would be easy to track any single bill between being withdrawn from an atm/bank and re-entering one by noting the serial number and account number as it comes and goes. Exchanges will certainly happen between withdrawals and deposits, but still your privacy is only preserved when neither of your counterparties withdraw/deposit the bill

unethical_ban 4y ago
Tell me how much harder and less reliable it is to track billions of individual serialized objects over time vs. a database transaction.
- techdragon 4y ago
  I always just assumed that somewhere in the banknotes lifecycle those serial numbers are all getting written into a database… I kind of assumed that based on examples where the government was able to trace where large amounts of cash had come from and what it got spent on when doing major crime investigations or things like DB Cooper and how confidently they proclaim that none of the cash (that wasn’t “lost” and then found by various searches or the public over the years) was ever spent. I assumed it was probably part of obligatory regulations to do with money laundering or something equivalent and thus they all had to do it.