4 ms·

>This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID You mean something that's demonstrated to have a statistically significant protective effect in a

>This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID You mean something that's demonstrated to have a statistically significant protective effect in a majority of studies but was attacked mercilessly by the pharma industry and the media they fund because they can't profit from a generic drug like that? https://c19ivm.org/meta.html https://c19ivm.org/meta.html

defrost 4y ago
Looks great .. dive in (talk to your local professional epidemiologist) and it's a skewed collection of low N studies mixed in with studies in regions with large intestinal parasite issues. Does horse dewormer do anything significant for large populations in first world countries? No. (Save for regions with a intestinal parasite problem) Elsewhere it gets rid of a significant number of parasites, making people healthier, and improving their chances WRT everything else, the common cold, influenza, COVID, etc. If you have worms, take a dewormer course. If you don't .. it won't do diddly squat for COVID. Statistics!! (Sometimes there's correlation but that ain't always causal).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 4y ago
    Fair point, it's also effective against a wider range of parasites, head lice, eyelash mites, and skin conditions. In the case of COVID in populations sans those conditions .. not so much.
    - sixQuarks 4y ago
      In addition to head lice and eyelash mites, it might also be useful to point out it is the only drug to win a Nobel Prize for treatment of infectious diseases. Used by BILLIONS of people. May I remind you that you referred to this drug as a horse dewormer before you were called out. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/
      - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
        Appeal to authority & false equivalence (apples & oranges); just because it's won a nobel prize doesn't mean it's a miracle cure against the 'rona. I'm already dubious of the article you linked because the title uses appeal to authority (nobel prize winning) and emotional language (new global scourge). I won't disagree that ivermectin improves life expectancy in some of those studies, but it doesn't seem to be effective in environments with less parasites. Note also that it focuses on fatalities, not getting the disease, curing it faster than its natural course, or preventing it. For a great meta-meta research, see https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
        sixQuarks 4y ago
        I didn’t even say anything about covid. I was refuting that it should be referenced as horse dewormer. You seem to have some major bias as well.
      - defrost 4y ago
        FWiW no drug has ever won a Nobel prize - researchers are awarded such prizes. Specifically William C. Campbell and Satoshi Ōmura shared the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work developing a new drug, Avermectin. From the actual press release from the actual Nobel Prize Committee [1]: which was subsequently chemically modified to a more effective compound called Ivermectin. Ivermectin was later tested in humans with parasitic infections and effectively killed parasite larvae (microfilaria). Collectively, Ōmura and Campbell’s contributions led to the discovery of a new class of drugs with extraordinary efficacy against parasitic diseases. So, in actual fact NOT used for treatment of "infectious diseases" but for treatment specifically of parasitic diseases because it was developed to be a highly effective dewormer that kills roundworm parasites. The Nobel Prize press release that you yourself cite (although apparently have never actually read) depicts Ivermectin as a Horse Dewormer (see figure 3) - it also deworms cattle, humans, pigs, etc. As a highly effective dewormer it is obviously positively correlated with health improvements in any large population with significant parasites - killing parasite improves overall health, more food eaten available for the host, improved immune responses, etc. Hence the reason for many global studies showing positive results following Ivermectin treatments. Hence also the reason quacks in the US started pushing propaganda about supposed effectiveness against COVID, setting up smoke and mirror site such as the one linked above, and spreading sly not quite untruths such as the Nobel Prize one you've repeated. Do please read the original 2015 press release in full. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2015/press.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelp...
  - meepmorp 4y ago
    The fact that the only part of everything they said you have any response for is the term they used to describe the medication, and then used it to dismiss anything else - that doesn't make you seem especially free of irrational thinking yourself.
    - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      Red herring fallacy, as a response to tone policing or dictionary or whatnot.
      - meepmorp 4y ago
        not an argument and fallacy fallacy
- linuxftw 4y ago
  Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, among other possible mechanisms. They developed Paxlovid to work in a similar way, but it seems to be not effective whatsoever. Then you have Remdisiv, which definitely killed 10's of thousands of people, if not more. That's the real story of COVID, at least in the US. The countless people that were experimented on with one of the most dangerous drugs to be invented in recent times.

defrost 4y ago

Looks great .. dive in (talk to your local professional epidemiologist) and it's a skewed collection of low N studies mixed in with studies in regions with large intestinal parasite issues. Does horse dewormer do anything significant for large populations in first world countries? No. (Save for regions with a intestinal parasite problem) Elsewhere it gets rid of a significant number of parasites, making people healthier, and improving their chances WRT everything else, the common cold, influenza, COVID, etc. If you have worms, take a dewormer course. If you don't .. it won't do diddly squat for COVID. Statistics!! (Sometimes there's correlation but that ain't always causal).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sixQuarks 4y ago
[flagged]
- defrost 4y ago
  Fair point, it's also effective against a wider range of parasites, head lice, eyelash mites, and skin conditions. In the case of COVID in populations sans those conditions .. not so much.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    In addition to head lice and eyelash mites, it might also be useful to point out it is the only drug to win a Nobel Prize for treatment of infectious diseases. Used by BILLIONS of people. May I remind you that you referred to this drug as a horse dewormer before you were called out. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/
    - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      Appeal to authority & false equivalence (apples & oranges); just because it's won a nobel prize doesn't mean it's a miracle cure against the 'rona. I'm already dubious of the article you linked because the title uses appeal to authority (nobel prize winning) and emotional language (new global scourge). I won't disagree that ivermectin improves life expectancy in some of those studies, but it doesn't seem to be effective in environments with less parasites. Note also that it focuses on fatalities, not getting the disease, curing it faster than its natural course, or preventing it. For a great meta-meta research, see https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
      - sixQuarks 4y ago
        I didn’t even say anything about covid. I was refuting that it should be referenced as horse dewormer. You seem to have some major bias as well.
    - defrost 4y ago
      FWiW no drug has ever won a Nobel prize - researchers are awarded such prizes. Specifically William C. Campbell and Satoshi Ōmura shared the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work developing a new drug, Avermectin. From the actual press release from the actual Nobel Prize Committee [1]: which was subsequently chemically modified to a more effective compound called Ivermectin. Ivermectin was later tested in humans with parasitic infections and effectively killed parasite larvae (microfilaria). Collectively, Ōmura and Campbell’s contributions led to the discovery of a new class of drugs with extraordinary efficacy against parasitic diseases. So, in actual fact NOT used for treatment of "infectious diseases" but for treatment specifically of parasitic diseases because it was developed to be a highly effective dewormer that kills roundworm parasites. The Nobel Prize press release that you yourself cite (although apparently have never actually read) depicts Ivermectin as a Horse Dewormer (see figure 3) - it also deworms cattle, humans, pigs, etc. As a highly effective dewormer it is obviously positively correlated with health improvements in any large population with significant parasites - killing parasite improves overall health, more food eaten available for the host, improved immune responses, etc. Hence the reason for many global studies showing positive results following Ivermectin treatments. Hence also the reason quacks in the US started pushing propaganda about supposed effectiveness against COVID, setting up smoke and mirror site such as the one linked above, and spreading sly not quite untruths such as the Nobel Prize one you've repeated. Do please read the original 2015 press release in full. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2015/press.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelp...
- meepmorp 4y ago
  The fact that the only part of everything they said you have any response for is the term they used to describe the medication, and then used it to dismiss anything else - that doesn't make you seem especially free of irrational thinking yourself.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    Red herring fallacy, as a response to tone policing or dictionary or whatnot.
    - meepmorp 4y ago
      not an argument and fallacy fallacy
linuxftw 4y ago
Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, among other possible mechanisms. They developed Paxlovid to work in a similar way, but it seems to be not effective whatsoever. Then you have Remdisiv, which definitely killed 10's of thousands of people, if not more. That's the real story of COVID, at least in the US. The countless people that were experimented on with one of the most dangerous drugs to be invented in recent times.