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I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new con

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started today? What's the state of the art, where to buy what etc.

rgoulter 3y ago
If you mean "I saw a keyboard someone else had, I'd like one too", then you're probably going to get good results if you send a message like "wow, this is really cool, how do I go about making one of these". Generally, the shops I've seen are all quite happy to sell parts, & provide assembly guides. I think those are good starting points for learning about the things you don't know.
jerezzprime 3y ago
Which subreddit are you looking at? I am also interested in an ergo keyboard with an integrated trackball.
- avidiax 3y ago
  What I've done is take a Kinesis Advantage2 and add an Apple Magic Trackpad, like this: [1] I use museum wax as the mounting method, which allows slight adjustments but is otherwise a firm hold. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/s2n2k3/kinesis_advantage_magic_trackpad_integration/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/s2n2k3/ki...
  - jerezzprime 3y ago
    So it's only a small movement with one of your hands for mouse control? Seems like a simple solution.
- lars_francke 3y ago
  I've been subscribed to https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards for a year or so now and there is a lot of energy there. It's just really hard to follow when you're only casually browsing.
microtonal 3y ago
As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have any long-term group studies at all. E.g. Dactyl Manuform keyboards are quite popular, but many long-term users report thumb injuries from using Dactyl Manuforms. Who knows what injuries many of the custom designs can cause long-term? Most hobbyist keyboard designers are not trained medical professionals and basically don't have much of a clue what they are doing. I would recommend people to start with prebuilt keyboards that have been around for a while and are pretty well-understood and in some cases had input from or testing by experts. Some examples: - Fixed-split angled Microsoft keyboards (some models had extensive group studies, etc. Some models do break fairly quickly.) - Logitech ERGO K860 - Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. This is traditional keyboard but with split and optional tenting (both of which have been shown to be good in various studies, be sure to get the tenting kit). - Kinesis Advantage, goes all-in with ergonomic features and requires relearning typing a bit. Has been around in various forms for 30 years and is well-understood. Most people who use one swear by it. - Keyboardio Model 100. The precursor (Model 01) has been around for many years. The design seems sane and I haven't seen many complaints. - ZSA Ergodox EZ/Moonlander: these are quite popular. But be careful, quite many people report having thumb issues after a while. I don't know any proven designs with trackballs, I have seen some people complain about integrated trackballs becoming uncomfortable after a while.
- leononame 3y ago
  I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kinesis Advantage 360, though it has no F-Keys. Another option would be the Glove80. The MS/Logitech keyboards are super cheap in comparison. Would you say not having ortholinear keys is a big difference for ergonomics?
lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
Maybe https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ will be less intimidating? There are several designs on that subreddit if you search for "trackball." like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/charybdis_x_gmk_laser_x_holy_panda_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/...
- lars_francke 3y ago
  That looks interesting! For me a pre-built one would probably be ideal, otherwise it'll end up with all the other half finished projects.
aznblur 3y ago
Not sure if this is exactly what you're after, but check out https://bastardkb.com/ https://bastardkb.com/ and their discord community.
bloopernova 3y ago
My advice to you is to get either a Keychron Q10 or Q11, then get a Ploopy trackball to place between/below the keyboard. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-me... https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-... https://ploopy.co/mini-trackball/ https://ploopy.co/mini-trackball/ <-- this one has buttons and a scroll wheel. I have a Keychron Q10 and program it with the "via" software, which works great. I also have a Ploopy mouse, which requires QMK compilation to customize. That worked out great for me, because I love tinkering. It's really difficult to encapsulate all that goes into a keyboard and mouse/trackball, like you said the communities create huge amounts of information, commentary, and designs. Which is why companies like Keychron are doing great work creating "layman" accessible keyboards. QMK is literally compiling C code into firmware. You can leave off LED effects if you want, use complex macros, rules, and layers, or cut out everything that you don't use. I mentioned my mouse earlier: it has 2 layers, the second of which is accessed by holding down a button. That gives me access to almost twice as many buttons! I have a volume control on my mouse's second layer, plus "paste plain text on MacOS". Very cool stuff and incredibly useful! Via is a QMK that is designed to be updated without the C toolchain present. It uses an Electron front end and is pretty straightforward to use. Obviously it's more restricted in what it can do, but I think it covers 99.9% of use cases. I wish I could write more, but I have to go for surgery. If you ask questions here, I should be able to respond by late evening US eastern time May 1st.
patrickpkt 3y ago
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Wylderbuilds https://www.etsy.com/shop/Wylderbuilds is a place I've used in the past. They sell parts and completed keyboards, but also have a link out to github with their modifications, at https://github.com/bullwinkle3000/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/bullwinkle3000/dactyl-keyboard. The whole dactyl space is definitely a rabbit hole, though.
simplotek 3y ago
> I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball (...) I'd already be happy if there were mechanical keyboards out there that offered USB passthrough to connect things like yubikeys, a trackpad or headphones. So far the only one I'm aware that has those is the Royal Kludge rk84, but I doesn't seem to be a popular choice.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  The Fnatic Rush G1 has a USB hub. I have my BIO-key SideTouch connected, and plug a wireless mouse dongle into the other port as the range isn't good enough to reach the next room where my computer lives.
  - simplotek 3y ago
    Thanks for mentioning the Fnatic Rush G1 keyboard. It sounds interesting, but it doesn't seem to be featured in their site anymore. https://fnatic.com/collections/keyboards https://fnatic.com/collections/keyboards From the looks of their product page, I'm not sure what to think about their keyboards.
    - hammyhavoc 3y ago
      Not current, but can still be had frequently as new old stock. The current line is garish, but their origin is in dogfooding the hardware for their professional CSGO players ("team Fnatic"). I've been using it since it launched (~2016). Still works great, mine uses Cherry MX Blue switches, so if you do wear out a switch, it's an easy fix.
ceoloide 3y ago
I love the unibody design of the Cocot 46 Plus: https://kbd.news/Cocot46plus-1455.html https://kbd.news/Cocot46plus-1455.html However the board is not yet open source, like many Japanes custom boards.

rgoulter 3y ago

If you mean "I saw a keyboard someone else had, I'd like one too", then you're probably going to get good results if you send a message like "wow, this is really cool, how do I go about making one of these". Generally, the shops I've seen are all quite happy to sell parts, & provide assembly guides. I think those are good starting points for learning about the things you don't know.

jerezzprime 3y ago

Which subreddit are you looking at? I am also interested in an ergo keyboard with an integrated trackball.

avidiax 3y ago
What I've done is take a Kinesis Advantage2 and add an Apple Magic Trackpad, like this: [1] I use museum wax as the mounting method, which allows slight adjustments but is otherwise a firm hold. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/s2n2k3/kinesis_advantage_magic_trackpad_integration/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/s2n2k3/ki...
- jerezzprime 3y ago
  So it's only a small movement with one of your hands for mouse control? Seems like a simple solution.
lars_francke 3y ago
I've been subscribed to https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards for a year or so now and there is a lot of energy there. It's just really hard to follow when you're only casually browsing.

microtonal 3y ago

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have any long-term group studies at all. E.g. Dactyl Manuform keyboards are quite popular, but many long-term users report thumb injuries from using Dactyl Manuforms. Who knows what injuries many of the custom designs can cause long-term? Most hobbyist keyboard designers are not trained medical professionals and basically don't have much of a clue what they are doing. I would recommend people to start with prebuilt keyboards that have been around for a while and are pretty well-understood and in some cases had input from or testing by experts. Some examples: - Fixed-split angled Microsoft keyboards (some models had extensive group studies, etc. Some models do break fairly quickly.) - Logitech ERGO K860 - Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. This is traditional keyboard but with split and optional tenting (both of which have been shown to be good in various studies, be sure to get the tenting kit). - Kinesis Advantage, goes all-in with ergonomic features and requires relearning typing a bit. Has been around in various forms for 30 years and is well-understood. Most people who use one swear by it. - Keyboardio Model 100. The precursor (Model 01) has been around for many years. The design seems sane and I haven't seen many complaints. - ZSA Ergodox EZ/Moonlander: these are quite popular. But be careful, quite many people report having thumb issues after a while. I don't know any proven designs with trackballs, I have seen some people complain about integrated trackballs becoming uncomfortable after a while.

leononame 3y ago
I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kinesis Advantage 360, though it has no F-Keys. Another option would be the Glove80. The MS/Logitech keyboards are super cheap in comparison. Would you say not having ortholinear keys is a big difference for ergonomics?

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago

Maybe https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ will be less intimidating? There are several designs on that subreddit if you search for "trackball." like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/charybdis_x_gmk_laser_x_holy_panda_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/...

lars_francke 3y ago
That looks interesting! For me a pre-built one would probably be ideal, otherwise it'll end up with all the other half finished projects.

aznblur 3y ago

Not sure if this is exactly what you're after, but check out https://bastardkb.com/ https://bastardkb.com/ and their discord community.

bloopernova 3y ago

My advice to you is to get either a Keychron Q10 or Q11, then get a Ploopy trackball to place between/below the keyboard. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-me... https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-... https://ploopy.co/mini-trackball/ https://ploopy.co/mini-trackball/ <-- this one has buttons and a scroll wheel. I have a Keychron Q10 and program it with the "via" software, which works great. I also have a Ploopy mouse, which requires QMK compilation to customize. That worked out great for me, because I love tinkering. It's really difficult to encapsulate all that goes into a keyboard and mouse/trackball, like you said the communities create huge amounts of information, commentary, and designs. Which is why companies like Keychron are doing great work creating "layman" accessible keyboards. QMK is literally compiling C code into firmware. You can leave off LED effects if you want, use complex macros, rules, and layers, or cut out everything that you don't use. I mentioned my mouse earlier: it has 2 layers, the second of which is accessed by holding down a button. That gives me access to almost twice as many buttons! I have a volume control on my mouse's second layer, plus "paste plain text on MacOS". Very cool stuff and incredibly useful! Via is a QMK that is designed to be updated without the C toolchain present. It uses an Electron front end and is pretty straightforward to use. Obviously it's more restricted in what it can do, but I think it covers 99.9% of use cases. I wish I could write more, but I have to go for surgery. If you ask questions here, I should be able to respond by late evening US eastern time May 1st.

patrickpkt 3y ago

https://www.etsy.com/shop/Wylderbuilds https://www.etsy.com/shop/Wylderbuilds is a place I've used in the past. They sell parts and completed keyboards, but also have a link out to github with their modifications, at https://github.com/bullwinkle3000/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/bullwinkle3000/dactyl-keyboard. The whole dactyl space is definitely a rabbit hole, though.

simplotek 3y ago

> I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball (...) I'd already be happy if there were mechanical keyboards out there that offered USB passthrough to connect things like yubikeys, a trackpad or headphones. So far the only one I'm aware that has those is the Royal Kludge rk84, but I doesn't seem to be a popular choice.

hammyhavoc 3y ago
The Fnatic Rush G1 has a USB hub. I have my BIO-key SideTouch connected, and plug a wireless mouse dongle into the other port as the range isn't good enough to reach the next room where my computer lives.
- simplotek 3y ago
  Thanks for mentioning the Fnatic Rush G1 keyboard. It sounds interesting, but it doesn't seem to be featured in their site anymore. https://fnatic.com/collections/keyboards https://fnatic.com/collections/keyboards From the looks of their product page, I'm not sure what to think about their keyboards.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    Not current, but can still be had frequently as new old stock. The current line is garish, but their origin is in dogfooding the hardware for their professional CSGO players ("team Fnatic"). I've been using it since it launched (~2016). Still works great, mine uses Cherry MX Blue switches, so if you do wear out a switch, it's an easy fix.

ceoloide 3y ago

I love the unibody design of the Cocot 46 Plus: https://kbd.news/Cocot46plus-1455.html https://kbd.news/Cocot46plus-1455.html However the board is not yet open source, like many Japanes custom boards.