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There's too much that's simply memorisation over skills, deep lines leading you down well traversed paths. Creativity and ingenuity suffer. The only real opti

There's too much that's simply memorisation over skills, deep lines leading you down well traversed paths. Creativity and ingenuity suffer. The only real option if you want interesting games is to make intentionally bad moves so that theory falls apart, and that's only an option against weaker players. Did you watch the world championship this year? It did not at all fit your narrative. The games were very exciting. The players were out of prep early and often. There were a lot of chances being taken, blunders, and mistakes. All this from 2800-level players. I think people may soon realize that computers can be used for more than just preparing deep lines on well-trodden ground. They can also be used to find the shortest path off the beaten track and into a jungle of a midgame where you and your opponent can just play some chess. I love it!

yarg 4y ago
> There were a lot of chances being taken, blunders, and mistakes. All this from 2800-level players.,. OK, so fucking up accidentally can also make for an interesting game, but that hardly shatters my "narrative".
- chongli 4y ago
  They made these blunders because they were in very unfamiliar, double-edged positions. Yes, sometimes nerves got involved but sometimes the positions were just very sharp and complex and they couldn’t find the engine line. Also, a lot of those engine lines would’ve just made a draw, something a human player would never do when they’re playing with the white pieces in a need-to-win game.
fauxpause_ 4y ago
Eh. I don’t care about the chess world champions. I’m not playing them. RTS games suffer a similar problem. Until you become extremely proficient, you have basically no room to use novel strategies. You will lose to people with better execution on established strategies. And so you don’t do anything but grind execution and it’s pretty boring. Chess isn’t quite this bad, but I find it pretty boring after a while.
- eitally 4y ago
  The flip side to your comment, though, is that chess can be highly entertaining for people just getting started, who neither know any established openings or play lines, nor are playing against opponents who do... which describes the vast majority of newcomers to the game. I would argue that you can get to approaching 1500 ELO without really knowing any theory at all, and just focusing on what "feels" like appropriate control of the board & game dynamics... and again, the vast majority of casual players will likely never move beyond that. But it's still fun, especially when they're able to challenge friends between classes to 3 or 5 minute matches.
  - fauxpause_ 4y ago
    I agree. Novice chess is great. Especially with local peers. I find it loses its appeal pretty quick when you start playing in a system like lichess however. Once you stop progressing quickly which is probably around a month or three of interested play. That may not hold if it’s an established form of social competition where you can earn prestige by being good at it within your local peer group. It would be nice to see more intellectual challenges take that role among young people.

yarg 4y ago

> There were a lot of chances being taken, blunders, and mistakes. All this from 2800-level players.,. OK, so fucking up accidentally can also make for an interesting game, but that hardly shatters my "narrative".

chongli 4y ago
They made these blunders because they were in very unfamiliar, double-edged positions. Yes, sometimes nerves got involved but sometimes the positions were just very sharp and complex and they couldn’t find the engine line. Also, a lot of those engine lines would’ve just made a draw, something a human player would never do when they’re playing with the white pieces in a need-to-win game.

fauxpause_ 4y ago

Eh. I don’t care about the chess world champions. I’m not playing them. RTS games suffer a similar problem. Until you become extremely proficient, you have basically no room to use novel strategies. You will lose to people with better execution on established strategies. And so you don’t do anything but grind execution and it’s pretty boring. Chess isn’t quite this bad, but I find it pretty boring after a while.

eitally 4y ago
The flip side to your comment, though, is that chess can be highly entertaining for people just getting started, who neither know any established openings or play lines, nor are playing against opponents who do... which describes the vast majority of newcomers to the game. I would argue that you can get to approaching 1500 ELO without really knowing any theory at all, and just focusing on what "feels" like appropriate control of the board & game dynamics... and again, the vast majority of casual players will likely never move beyond that. But it's still fun, especially when they're able to challenge friends between classes to 3 or 5 minute matches.
- fauxpause_ 4y ago
  I agree. Novice chess is great. Especially with local peers. I find it loses its appeal pretty quick when you start playing in a system like lichess however. Once you stop progressing quickly which is probably around a month or three of interested play. That may not hold if it’s an established form of social competition where you can earn prestige by being good at it within your local peer group. It would be nice to see more intellectual challenges take that role among young people.