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The funny thing is, that extra working does actually negatively impact the business at least in the software world. People seemingly end up having a lot more t

The funny thing is, that extra working does actually negatively impact the business at least in the software world. People seemingly end up having a lot more time for _defining processes_. There are people at nearly every large company I’ve worked on that so more meta work, and sometimes demand more meta work than actual work. Like there are folks that are actively costing productivity in exchange for the meta work. I’ve challenged them to actually back the work they’re doing with data and how it’s actually helpful and generally there’s no follow up. It’s amazing.

tremon 4y ago
Ah yes, I've worked before with developers that believed that processes didn't matter. They produced amazing value, or so they thought. Except that... Half of what they did was never committed into git, because a software versioning process is for dummies. And the other half could only be found in a random feature branch, because they didn't need any review process, their code was always faultless. Whatever was running in production did not match any state of the repository, because CI/CD processes only get in the way. The documentation never matched their code because documentation is only for people that don't know what they're doing, and we shouldn't hire such people anyway. Not saying that's you. But that is the type of person you appear to me when you proudly proclaim that processes have no value.
- em-bee 4y ago
  i think you are misreading the parent comment. it's not claiming that processes have no value but that busybodies use their free time to invent additional processes beyond those that are actually needed.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  If you read what I said a bit more carefully, you'd see that I specifically wanted to _measure_ what the outcome was and that there be data backed up with the processes being made. I'm not talking about the use of git, etc. I'm not even talking about process in relation to the code either. It's process for tracking how we track projects. Like, that level of indirection.
hotpotamus 4y ago
If you haven't read or heard about David Graeber, then you've independently put your finger on the subject of his book "Bullshit Jobs", but I'd imagine it's a common realization for many in large organizations.

tremon 4y ago

Ah yes, I've worked before with developers that believed that processes didn't matter. They produced amazing value, or so they thought. Except that... Half of what they did was never committed into git, because a software versioning process is for dummies. And the other half could only be found in a random feature branch, because they didn't need any review process, their code was always faultless. Whatever was running in production did not match any state of the repository, because CI/CD processes only get in the way. The documentation never matched their code because documentation is only for people that don't know what they're doing, and we shouldn't hire such people anyway. Not saying that's you. But that is the type of person you appear to me when you proudly proclaim that processes have no value.

em-bee 4y ago
i think you are misreading the parent comment. it's not claiming that processes have no value but that busybodies use their free time to invent additional processes beyond those that are actually needed.
aaomidi 4y ago
If you read what I said a bit more carefully, you'd see that I specifically wanted to _measure_ what the outcome was and that there be data backed up with the processes being made. I'm not talking about the use of git, etc. I'm not even talking about process in relation to the code either. It's process for tracking how we track projects. Like, that level of indirection.

hotpotamus 4y ago

If you haven't read or heard about David Graeber, then you've independently put your finger on the subject of his book "Bullshit Jobs", but I'd imagine it's a common realization for many in large organizations.