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I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t,

by DougN7 3y ago

I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t, regardless of job. This makes me sad. Economically it makes sense, but it’s a sign of the sickness in our modern society. Everyone looking out for themselves first without much thought to the community around them. I say this having been burned by employees like this (that did maybe, maybe, an hour’s worth of remote work per day). Maybe it all boils down to “this is why we can’t have nice things”.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gryn 3y ago
> Everyone looking out for themselves yes, including/especially employers. maybe (or not) these employee started doing this after been burned by their employers before. the very same that talk about the community, greater good, and being in it together but suddenly change speech when they're on the benefiting side. I've been on both side of the equation so I understand. I also have acquaintances that were too, they used to behave the same way as mentioned in the article but once they had their own company started talking the same way you do, suddenly what was acceptable for them to do is unimaginable and unacceptable behavior for other people to do. that society should not have such things. not because they changed their opinions but because their incentives are what changed, so if they go back to their previous position so would their attitude. at the end of the day, the reason people work is not because they want to, it's because they have to in order to get what they want. wanting to have employees that go above and beyond, are the most productive, the most knowledgeable, most skilled, and accept the least pay is what best for you when you're the employer. but when you play in the other camp it's the reverse: the best job is the one that demand the least out of you for the most pay. the payoff functions for the different actors roles are the not same, trying to appeal to a sense of shame, duty or merit is just a way for one actor to hijack another's perception of the game for their own benefit.
- DougN7 3y ago
  Totally agree with almost everything you say. But there are lines both sides should not cross. For employers it’s exploitation (don’t expect unpaid work) and for employees it’s theft (don’t take pay for no work). If we can’t agree on that then we’re headed for a break down in society.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
We got here with hyper aggressive shareholder value optimization and management (broadly speaking) turning practitioners into interchangeable, replaceable cogs. Game’s the same, just got more fierce. Talk about community doesn’t pay inflated rent, food, or healthcare costs.
- DougN7 3y ago
  Theft will eventually result in even less pay over time. Both sides need to respect each other. In my case a dev was paid very well and given tons of freedom, and screwed me. I’m not some huge company making bank here.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    I’m not saying you personally are the problem, nor that theft is condoned or called for. I’m saying that in the greater labor market macro, there is no evidence that hard work and being diligent will be rewarded, and therefore it should come as no surprise that people are “acting their wage”, “quiet quitting”, or whatever the PR engine is calling it most recently as part of the marketing campaign. Workers are responding to incentives and the environment they’re operating in, plain and simple. When people don’t care, I don’t blame them, it’s the second order effects that result that sucks. I have no solution to suggest unfortunately besides only hire and work with professionals you know and trust.

by DougN7 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gryn 3y ago

> Everyone looking out for themselves yes, including/especially employers. maybe (or not) these employee started doing this after been burned by their employers before. the very same that talk about the community, greater good, and being in it together but suddenly change speech when they're on the benefiting side. I've been on both side of the equation so I understand. I also have acquaintances that were too, they used to behave the same way as mentioned in the article but once they had their own company started talking the same way you do, suddenly what was acceptable for them to do is unimaginable and unacceptable behavior for other people to do. that society should not have such things. not because they changed their opinions but because their incentives are what changed, so if they go back to their previous position so would their attitude. at the end of the day, the reason people work is not because they want to, it's because they have to in order to get what they want. wanting to have employees that go above and beyond, are the most productive, the most knowledgeable, most skilled, and accept the least pay is what best for you when you're the employer. but when you play in the other camp it's the reverse: the best job is the one that demand the least out of you for the most pay. the payoff functions for the different actors roles are the not same, trying to appeal to a sense of shame, duty or merit is just a way for one actor to hijack another's perception of the game for their own benefit.

DougN7 3y ago
Totally agree with almost everything you say. But there are lines both sides should not cross. For employers it’s exploitation (don’t expect unpaid work) and for employees it’s theft (don’t take pay for no work). If we can’t agree on that then we’re headed for a break down in society.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

We got here with hyper aggressive shareholder value optimization and management (broadly speaking) turning practitioners into interchangeable, replaceable cogs. Game’s the same, just got more fierce. Talk about community doesn’t pay inflated rent, food, or healthcare costs.

DougN7 3y ago
Theft will eventually result in even less pay over time. Both sides need to respect each other. In my case a dev was paid very well and given tons of freedom, and screwed me. I’m not some huge company making bank here.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I’m not saying you personally are the problem, nor that theft is condoned or called for. I’m saying that in the greater labor market macro, there is no evidence that hard work and being diligent will be rewarded, and therefore it should come as no surprise that people are “acting their wage”, “quiet quitting”, or whatever the PR engine is calling it most recently as part of the marketing campaign. Workers are responding to incentives and the environment they’re operating in, plain and simple. When people don’t care, I don’t blame them, it’s the second order effects that result that sucks. I have no solution to suggest unfortunately besides only hire and work with professionals you know and trust.