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A Radiohead album is an incredibly sophisticated feat of audio engineering requiring a team of people beyond the band itself to make. The production costs are s

by steppi 3y ago

A Radiohead album is an incredibly sophisticated feat of audio engineering requiring a team of people beyond the band itself to make. The production costs are substantial. It takes more than just practicing enough to make something like that. If AI gets to the point where I can record something in my bedroom with similar production values, I’d count that as democratization.

dmbche 3y ago
What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web? And is the difference between the hypothetical bedroom-produced version of the same Radiohead album and the actual album actually that noticeable? I work in film/video, and you definitely can produce something that would have cost millions of dollars 10 years ago by yourself, with minimal costs. I struggle to compare the scale of engineering needed to make albums versus movies.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web? Create enough hours in the day to do the work. No amount of skill or knowledge will get me over the hump that it takes hundreds, maybe thousands, of person hours to produce a Radiohead album.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    I'm sorry - hours of doing what exactly? Ok computer took two months of mixing, and some time for the mastering. 80% of it were live takes. What's the AI supposed to do?
    - Swizec 3y ago
      The 2 months of mixing
      - dmbche 3y ago
        I don't know what to tell you brother, two months of mixing is very doable for humans beings... As it was done by two people to make OK Computer? I don't think having an AI will change much for your music production if 2 months of mixing is too much work. Don't even know what you'd ask it to do - you'd probably have to readjust it until it's the way you want it...it would probably take the same time don't you think?
        Swizec 3y ago
        So we’re talking about democratizing production yeah? Imagine I’m a schmuck who can croon into a microphone. It’s just me. I have a dayjob because this is a hobby. “Just a quick 2 months of work” is a total nonstarter. I’ll just keep crooning in the shower “Just 2 months, it’s not a lot” is like telling someone “Oh cleaning the house is easy, just ask your maid”
        dmbche 3y ago
        Well we're talking about making a record like OK Computer. It's a work of art, it takes time and intent and attention to details. If you want to record a couple jazz songs for kicks you can very easily and satisfactorily do this today, for very little money (just higher up this thread people have recommended great tools) and it will be higher quality that what was playing on the radio in the 90s. And I'd argue that if you were as good a crooner as Radiohead are -eh- experimental musicians, I'm sure you'd find the time to make an album that would make yourself rich. Sorry I'm a little ranty - gonna get a drink I guess You don't need two months of mixing for your crooner album. You can mix it yourself on the weekend and be 80% there. Like the guy that did Tubular Bells keep re-recording it because it's not good enough for him - but I'm fine with the version he first produced. AI isn't going to change anything here.
        steppi 3y ago
        I get it, but I see so many possibilities here. Fitter Happier and Climbing up the Walls have string arrangements performed by an orchestra. Can you imagine writing a score and spinning up a virtual orchestra to play it? There are so many subtleties in phrasing, dynamics, and intonation that make the difference between just Ok and excellent. It doesn’t seem impossible to imagine giving your score to your virtual musicians and communicating with them in natural language and hummed phrases in an iterative process until they get things just right. You’d have to agree this would be democratizing, right?
  - dmbche 3y ago
    Reading on the recording of OK Computer, "about 80%" of it was live, no audio separation, it took two months to mix, I can't find the time it took to master. I don't know where the thousands of man-hours were spent?
    - zamnos 3y ago
      OK Computer ended up with 12 songs, although OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997 2017, the 2017 reissue of OK Computer included 3 extra previously unreleased tracks (plus a bunch more extras). If we assume those 3 tracks were mixed and mastered for OK Computer's original release, but just didn't make the cut for whatever reason, we have 15 tracks. Thousands of man-hours is the five members of the band, plus their producer, plus an audio-engineer working 40 hrs/wk. There are 43 business days in 2 months, or just under 3 days per track. 3 days to do a bunch of technical work to balance the recordings juuust right, and then balance those recordings between each other to make it worthy of being called a Radiohead album. Personally, 3 days per track actually doesn't sound like enough time for that since you mix it, and then have to listen to that particular mix until you get bored, and then come back to it after, listen to it again some more, figure out how you feel about that mix, and then repeat. Of course, you can half-ass it and throw the tracks into Ableton, spend 20 minutes and call it a day, but you didn't used to get to be Radiohead with that kind of effort. ML algos on the horizon seem like they'll be able to do just that.
      - pfannkuchen 3y ago
        If production gets easier, I’m guessing the competitive bar will raise to a point where you still can’t do this with little effort. There may be an adjustment period where you can, but I think it will be temporary. An arms race will kick off with the new tools.
mjr00 3y ago
You don't need AI for this, you can do it now. Any analog music production gear in existence has a software emulation that's 99.99% accurate and available for a few hundred bucks at most (and of course can be easily acquired for free, as with all software). High quality audio interfaces are available for cheap. Most expensive thing would be renting out a studio to record vocals with a good mic, and even that is arguably unnecessary. Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook.
- steppi 3y ago
  I’ve recorded at home with a similar setup. Getting things to sound just right takes a lot of effort and tinkering though which I just don’t have time for due to the demands of work and family. I might have a couple hours per week to devote to music. If I could go from writing a song to making a professional sounding recording in a couple hours, that would be amazing. This isn’t a hypothetical either. I’m an ML researcher and plan to experiment with stuff like this when I have time. Making it stupid easy to produce professional sounding recordings would absolutely be democratizing in my opinion.
  - mjr00 3y ago
    Already lots of magic tooling for exactly this, some of which (allegedly) uses AI. Look into Gullfoss for AI assistance with mixing and iZotope Ozone which has an "AI mastering assistant." And there's even more basic "one knob sound good" plugins of varying effectiveness, like OTT, Sausage Fattener and Soundgoodizer.
    - steppi 3y ago
      Thanks for the recommendations. All of my music equipment is in storage now, but I hope to set up a small studio later this year. Will definitely check this stuff out.
- raydev 3y ago
  The gear has indeed gotten cheaper, but you need to - record one or more sounds - have extensive knowledge about filters, mixing, mastering Without the latter, even if you're amazing musician/singer and you have decent gear and a nice interace and good ideas, you still need to sit down and mix the thing so that it sounds good in the car/airpods/phone/laptop. > Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook. I'll bet you money that if one of their songs has repeat status in your music player, that song is likely not the first song they've ever recorded. They had to build mechanical skills first. AI-generated music skips that.
oldtownroad 3y ago
One of the highest selling songs of the decade, Old Town Road, was made by some kid on a laptop in his bedroom. He has outsold Radiohead, the song went 16x platinum. Production value means nothing in the success of music, even some of the most successful major artists with major label backing put out badly mixed garbage and still outsell Radiohead. Music is like code: consumers don’t care about the input. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Road https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Road
EyeSayUntoThee 3y ago
"democratization"!? It wouldn't be YOU or another PERSON gaining these capacities, in such a scenario, it would be the tool, and you would be the toolmakers customer. ATM, LLM's of reasonable sophistication for such tasks are not running on your laptop, and at the point they do, something else will be getting all the limelight, and it won't be within your reach. As a lifelong musician and composer and producer, it's just automating things away that I don't want automated away. Producing music is about making decisions. You act as if Radiohead just inserted money and out came pro music, but really you appear to be wishing to skip any hard work and appear to be asking for instant gratification. Well, I can tell you, as someone who could readily train AI in music, that you only cheat yourself by cutting corners. Knowledge is power to do what you actually really deeply want to. Handing off the minute decisions that add up to making a masterpiece = cheating oneself of being a creator.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  Somebody's about to become like illustrators and copywriters — mostly irrelevant unless you are the very best at what you do.

by steppi 3y ago

dmbche 3y ago

What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web? And is the difference between the hypothetical bedroom-produced version of the same Radiohead album and the actual album actually that noticeable? I work in film/video, and you definitely can produce something that would have cost millions of dollars 10 years ago by yourself, with minimal costs. I struggle to compare the scale of engineering needed to make albums versus movies.

Swizec 3y ago
> What do you think the AI could do that you couldn't by searching the web? Create enough hours in the day to do the work. No amount of skill or knowledge will get me over the hump that it takes hundreds, maybe thousands, of person hours to produce a Radiohead album.
- dmbche 3y ago
  I'm sorry - hours of doing what exactly? Ok computer took two months of mixing, and some time for the mastering. 80% of it were live takes. What's the AI supposed to do?
  - Swizec 3y ago
    The 2 months of mixing
    - dmbche 3y ago
      I don't know what to tell you brother, two months of mixing is very doable for humans beings... As it was done by two people to make OK Computer? I don't think having an AI will change much for your music production if 2 months of mixing is too much work. Don't even know what you'd ask it to do - you'd probably have to readjust it until it's the way you want it...it would probably take the same time don't you think?
      - Swizec 3y ago
        So we’re talking about democratizing production yeah? Imagine I’m a schmuck who can croon into a microphone. It’s just me. I have a dayjob because this is a hobby. “Just a quick 2 months of work” is a total nonstarter. I’ll just keep crooning in the shower “Just 2 months, it’s not a lot” is like telling someone “Oh cleaning the house is easy, just ask your maid”
        dmbche 3y ago
        Well we're talking about making a record like OK Computer. It's a work of art, it takes time and intent and attention to details. If you want to record a couple jazz songs for kicks you can very easily and satisfactorily do this today, for very little money (just higher up this thread people have recommended great tools) and it will be higher quality that what was playing on the radio in the 90s. And I'd argue that if you were as good a crooner as Radiohead are -eh- experimental musicians, I'm sure you'd find the time to make an album that would make yourself rich. Sorry I'm a little ranty - gonna get a drink I guess You don't need two months of mixing for your crooner album. You can mix it yourself on the weekend and be 80% there. Like the guy that did Tubular Bells keep re-recording it because it's not good enough for him - but I'm fine with the version he first produced. AI isn't going to change anything here.
        steppi 3y ago
        I get it, but I see so many possibilities here. Fitter Happier and Climbing up the Walls have string arrangements performed by an orchestra. Can you imagine writing a score and spinning up a virtual orchestra to play it? There are so many subtleties in phrasing, dynamics, and intonation that make the difference between just Ok and excellent. It doesn’t seem impossible to imagine giving your score to your virtual musicians and communicating with them in natural language and hummed phrases in an iterative process until they get things just right. You’d have to agree this would be democratizing, right?
- dmbche 3y ago
  Reading on the recording of OK Computer, "about 80%" of it was live, no audio separation, it took two months to mix, I can't find the time it took to master. I don't know where the thousands of man-hours were spent?
  - zamnos 3y ago
    OK Computer ended up with 12 songs, although OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997 2017, the 2017 reissue of OK Computer included 3 extra previously unreleased tracks (plus a bunch more extras). If we assume those 3 tracks were mixed and mastered for OK Computer's original release, but just didn't make the cut for whatever reason, we have 15 tracks. Thousands of man-hours is the five members of the band, plus their producer, plus an audio-engineer working 40 hrs/wk. There are 43 business days in 2 months, or just under 3 days per track. 3 days to do a bunch of technical work to balance the recordings juuust right, and then balance those recordings between each other to make it worthy of being called a Radiohead album. Personally, 3 days per track actually doesn't sound like enough time for that since you mix it, and then have to listen to that particular mix until you get bored, and then come back to it after, listen to it again some more, figure out how you feel about that mix, and then repeat. Of course, you can half-ass it and throw the tracks into Ableton, spend 20 minutes and call it a day, but you didn't used to get to be Radiohead with that kind of effort. ML algos on the horizon seem like they'll be able to do just that.
    - pfannkuchen 3y ago
      If production gets easier, I’m guessing the competitive bar will raise to a point where you still can’t do this with little effort. There may be an adjustment period where you can, but I think it will be temporary. An arms race will kick off with the new tools.

mjr00 3y ago

You don't need AI for this, you can do it now. Any analog music production gear in existence has a software emulation that's 99.99% accurate and available for a few hundred bucks at most (and of course can be easily acquired for free, as with all software). High quality audio interfaces are available for cheap. Most expensive thing would be renting out a studio to record vocals with a good mic, and even that is arguably unnecessary. Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook.

steppi 3y ago
I’ve recorded at home with a similar setup. Getting things to sound just right takes a lot of effort and tinkering though which I just don’t have time for due to the demands of work and family. I might have a couple hours per week to devote to music. If I could go from writing a song to making a professional sounding recording in a couple hours, that would be amazing. This isn’t a hypothetical either. I’m an ML researcher and plan to experiment with stuff like this when I have time. Making it stupid easy to produce professional sounding recordings would absolutely be democratizing in my opinion.
- mjr00 3y ago
  Already lots of magic tooling for exactly this, some of which (allegedly) uses AI. Look into Gullfoss for AI assistance with mixing and iZotope Ozone which has an "AI mastering assistant." And there's even more basic "one knob sound good" plugins of varying effectiveness, like OTT, Sausage Fattener and Soundgoodizer.
  - steppi 3y ago
    Thanks for the recommendations. All of my music equipment is in storage now, but I hope to set up a small studio later this year. Will definitely check this stuff out.
raydev 3y ago
The gear has indeed gotten cheaper, but you need to - record one or more sounds - have extensive knowledge about filters, mixing, mastering Without the latter, even if you're amazing musician/singer and you have decent gear and a nice interace and good ideas, you still need to sit down and mix the thing so that it sounds good in the car/airpods/phone/laptop. > Plenty of in-the-box musicians and producers are making top quality songs with not much more than their Macbook. I'll bet you money that if one of their songs has repeat status in your music player, that song is likely not the first song they've ever recorded. They had to build mechanical skills first. AI-generated music skips that.

oldtownroad 3y ago

One of the highest selling songs of the decade, Old Town Road, was made by some kid on a laptop in his bedroom. He has outsold Radiohead, the song went 16x platinum. Production value means nothing in the success of music, even some of the most successful major artists with major label backing put out badly mixed garbage and still outsell Radiohead. Music is like code: consumers don’t care about the input. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Road https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Road

EyeSayUntoThee 3y ago

"democratization"!? It wouldn't be YOU or another PERSON gaining these capacities, in such a scenario, it would be the tool, and you would be the toolmakers customer. ATM, LLM's of reasonable sophistication for such tasks are not running on your laptop, and at the point they do, something else will be getting all the limelight, and it won't be within your reach. As a lifelong musician and composer and producer, it's just automating things away that I don't want automated away. Producing music is about making decisions. You act as if Radiohead just inserted money and out came pro music, but really you appear to be wishing to skip any hard work and appear to be asking for instant gratification. Well, I can tell you, as someone who could readily train AI in music, that you only cheat yourself by cutting corners. Knowledge is power to do what you actually really deeply want to. Handing off the minute decisions that add up to making a masterpiece = cheating oneself of being a creator.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
Somebody's about to become like illustrators and copywriters — mostly irrelevant unless you are the very best at what you do.