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It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-op

It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electro... The Germans: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign-intelligence-employee-suspected-spying-russia-2022-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign... Lets not forget that most of the EU is wrapped up in the Pegasus spy scandal: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal-keeps-spreading/a-63687981 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scand... Playing holier than thou with intelligence services is a losing game. There is no holy intelligence service and there is no nation without an intelligence function.

pastacacioepepe 3y ago
These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
- throwrqX 3y ago
  > You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
  - penneallagricia 3y ago
    The first article is just a claim with no evidence provided. The second is based on some yet unreleased documents that Der Spiegel claims to have reviewed years ago. Still no evidence to be found, only claims.
    - nullityrofl 3y ago
      It's a claim made by the head of the agency that did it. If you're not willing to take their word, I think you're being stubborn and obtuse and this will never be a productive discussion. If you're willing to believe a US whistleblower -- whose evidence you can't personally verify -- you have to be open to believing the _former head of the agency_.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  > The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies? Familiarize yourself with this concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
    Thanks for being pointlessly condescending. Realpolitik are the reason why I consider the USA and NATO a bunch of hypocrites, altho the USA surely championed the practice. They fill their mouth with good intents, justice, peace and all that is good in public but act like criminals behind the scenes. At the very least, countries like Russia and China seem to be much more open about their practicing Realpolitik.
    - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
      Russia is literally claiming that the Ukraine is run by Nazis. Not that there are people there who see the Nazis as a lesser threat than the Reds, but run by Nazis today. That's a lie so big it's visible from space.

pastacacioepepe 3y ago

These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?

nullityrofl 3y ago
The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
throwrqX 3y ago
> You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  The first article is just a claim with no evidence provided. The second is based on some yet unreleased documents that Der Spiegel claims to have reviewed years ago. Still no evidence to be found, only claims.
  - nullityrofl 3y ago
    It's a claim made by the head of the agency that did it. If you're not willing to take their word, I think you're being stubborn and obtuse and this will never be a productive discussion. If you're willing to believe a US whistleblower -- whose evidence you can't personally verify -- you have to be open to believing the _former head of the agency_.
stevenhuang 3y ago
> The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies? Familiarize yourself with this concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  Thanks for being pointlessly condescending. Realpolitik are the reason why I consider the USA and NATO a bunch of hypocrites, altho the USA surely championed the practice. They fill their mouth with good intents, justice, peace and all that is good in public but act like criminals behind the scenes. At the very least, countries like Russia and China seem to be much more open about their practicing Realpolitik.
  - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
    Russia is literally claiming that the Ukraine is run by Nazis. Not that there are people there who see the Nazis as a lesser threat than the Reds, but run by Nazis today. That's a lie so big it's visible from space.