3 ms·

This has nothing to do with Trump per se, it's really a bipartisan issue, as the new pentagon leaks just confirmed. I also doubt European countries have the ca

This has nothing to do with Trump per se, it's really a bipartisan issue, as the new pentagon leaks just confirmed. I also doubt European countries have the capacity to intercept private calls between top level USA govt officials.

zirgs 3y ago
What makes you think that they don't? They surely would keep that capability secret.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  > They surely would keep that capability secret. Like the USA itself couldn't? Strongly doubt, the amount of recent leaks we're just discussing proves me right. No nation could have such an espionage system in place without it ever leaking out in some way.
nullityrofl 3y ago
It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electro... The Germans: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign-intelligence-employee-suspected-spying-russia-2022-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign... Lets not forget that most of the EU is wrapped up in the Pegasus spy scandal: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal-keeps-spreading/a-63687981 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scand... Playing holier than thou with intelligence services is a losing game. There is no holy intelligence service and there is no nation without an intelligence function.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?
  - nullityrofl 3y ago
    The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
  - throwrqX 3y ago
    > You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
    - penneallagricia 3y ago
      The first article is just a claim with no evidence provided. The second is based on some yet unreleased documents that Der Spiegel claims to have reviewed years ago. Still no evidence to be found, only claims.
      - nullityrofl 3y ago
        It's a claim made by the head of the agency that did it. If you're not willing to take their word, I think you're being stubborn and obtuse and this will never be a productive discussion. If you're willing to believe a US whistleblower -- whose evidence you can't personally verify -- you have to be open to believing the _former head of the agency_.
  - stevenhuang 3y ago
    > The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies? Familiarize yourself with this concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

zirgs 3y ago

What makes you think that they don't? They surely would keep that capability secret.

penneallagricia 3y ago
> They surely would keep that capability secret. Like the USA itself couldn't? Strongly doubt, the amount of recent leaks we're just discussing proves me right. No nation could have such an espionage system in place without it ever leaking out in some way.

nullityrofl 3y ago

It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electro... The Germans: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign-intelligence-employee-suspected-spying-russia-2022-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign... Lets not forget that most of the EU is wrapped up in the Pegasus spy scandal: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal-keeps-spreading/a-63687981 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scand... Playing holier than thou with intelligence services is a losing game. There is no holy intelligence service and there is no nation without an intelligence function.

pastacacioepepe 3y ago
These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
- throwrqX 3y ago
  > You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
  - penneallagricia 3y ago
    The first article is just a claim with no evidence provided. The second is based on some yet unreleased documents that Der Spiegel claims to have reviewed years ago. Still no evidence to be found, only claims.
    - nullityrofl 3y ago
      It's a claim made by the head of the agency that did it. If you're not willing to take their word, I think you're being stubborn and obtuse and this will never be a productive discussion. If you're willing to believe a US whistleblower -- whose evidence you can't personally verify -- you have to be open to believing the _former head of the agency_.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  > The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies? Familiarize yourself with this concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik