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I legitimately cannot comprehend that anyone believes that the guy committed suicide. The closest I can come is believing staff were paid off to let him do so,

I legitimately cannot comprehend that anyone believes that the guy committed suicide. The closest I can come is believing staff were paid off to let him do so, but I can only imagine the sorts of heads that would have rolled on his open and honest testimony. Yeah.

tootie 3y ago
I absolutely believe it. It's far more plausible than the alternative.
- Ntrails 3y ago
  I find that position _wild_.
V__ 3y ago
Because incompetance is often more probable than malice. Without knowing baselines, like how often these procedures were broken in general, these don't mean much. What if this happened literally every day?
- MilStdJunkie 3y ago
  Yuuuuuuup. Good eye. It's pointless without knowing the trend, which is how conspiracy theories work. Which sucks, because there are very real conspiracies out there, and the others are very often employed for cover. See also MiB / LSD experiments, where you dress up as Hasidic diamond merchants and visit whistleblowers with gargantuan amounts of experimental psychedelics. "Ha ha this guy thinks aliens are probing everyone" Epstein, for his part, yeah, I agree, probably was actually part of a conspiracy, a fall guy for an entirely government run honeypot. However, I don't have any reason to think this is all true.
  - samstave 3y ago
    >>>It's pointless without knowing the trend, which is how conspiracy theories work. What? Conspiracy theories work specifically for seeing the trend over time. For example, I have no memory for what I ate yesterday, but I can recall news stories from as far back as the 80s which corroborate malfeasance decades later. Did you know that John McCain was a filthy grifting criminal who was involved in the savings and loan scandal, was a complete coverer for the Iran Contra debacle, and the CIAs BCCI money laundering scheme for their importing of drugs through Mena Arkansas, which was shielded by Bill Clinton, and for being a CIA minion was awarded the next POTUS position... Look into BCCI and a name you might be familiar with, Khoshoggi not the dismembered journalist by MBS, but his relative who was the arms dealer that sold his yacht to... donald trump. Who bragged about the purchase on nightly entertainment TV. "It's a big club, and you aint in it" -- George Carlin. The CIA runs the USA, and the drug trafficking and child trafficking industry, and Israel runs the CIA... Guess who was handling Epstein ;; Maxwell (AKA mossad)
    - gettodachoppa 3y ago
      >>> Look into BCCI and a name you might be familiar with, Khoshoggi not the dismembered journalist by MBS, but his relative who was the arms dealer that sold his yacht to... donald trump. Who bragged about the purchase on nightly entertainment TV. Damn, this is actually true. I just visited Wikipedia, and I did not expect what I learned there. I thought Jamal Kashoggi was just some journalist. I never looked into him. Turns out: -He worked at the Saudi equivalent of the CIA -He's the cousin of Dodi Al Fayed (the billionnaire who died in the car crash with Princess Diana) -He's the nephew of billionnaire arms dealer Adnan Kashoggi, who sold Donald Trump a $200M yacht -His grandfather was the personal doctor of the king of Saudi Arabia -Considering the amount of noise the US made about him, I also expected him to be a US citizen. But no, he wasn't even a US citizen. I've never in my whole life seen the US govt care this much about a foreigner dying abroad, even if they work for a US company. -George Soros' Open Society Foundation sued the Saudi government over his death I know HN is the sort of place where you get flagged for voicing your suspicions without linking some establishment-approved source that gives its blessing on a particular narrative. So I'll just say this: it feels to me me that this is a very surprising background for a mere journalist.
      - coliveira 3y ago
        Good. Now go to wikipedia again and learn about Felix Sater, and you'll see that Trump was also collaborating with the CIA to make connections and business with the Russian oligarchs. The web goes deeper than you can imagine.
        samstave 3y ago
        Just wait until we see an AI crawler the masses can use... The next conspiracy will be AI code that is delivering information that cant be debunked regardless how (un)true. Thats the AI we fear.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        this is crazy interesting. but what's can be hypothesized based on that. all of that is basically just circumstantial at that.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  However, incompetence can be allowed to go unpunished if it helps the people with malicious intent. If it happened every day, then it's still a failure of the system and to my mind is indicative of a widespread problem of getting rid of inconvenient people.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  > how often these procedures were broken in general, these don't mean much. What if this happened literally every day? according to this Fox News article [1] his suicide was the first in 21 years. 1: https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides
roncesvalles 3y ago
Let's say you're Epstein, and on this night of all nights, you don't have a cellmate and the guards have stopped checking in on you every 30 minutes. If you were suicidal wouldn't you take the opportunity? The only remarkable coincidence here was that the cameras were malfunctioning. It's highly improbable that a jail camera system would be designed in a way that it can be switched off by frontline guards with no evidence of tamper.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  found the mole on HN... tasked with spreading FUD about Epstein /s
- DANmode 3y ago
  Plausible. Highlights the focus being on the wrong part of the story (his death), when the events of his life are what need most scrutiny and tireless investigation.
belter 3y ago
Epstein's was the first recorded suicide at MCC in 21 years... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Correctional_Center,_New_York https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Correctional_Cent...
- bandyaboot 3y ago
  They had a near miss the month before when Epstein attempted suicide the first time.
  - belter 3y ago
    You call it suicide attempt, but it seems Epstein said he was attacked by a cell mate that ended up being convicted of four murders. "Epstein told lawyers that cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione ‘roughed him up’" -https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstein-told-lawyers-that-cellmate-nicholas-tartaglione-roughed-him-up/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstein-told-lawyers-that-cell... "Ex-officer who shared cell with Jeffrey Epstein convicted of quadruple murder" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/07/jeffrey-epstein-cellmate-quadruple-murder-conviction https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/07/jeffrey-epst...
    - bandyaboot 3y ago
      The problem is that telling people that you didn’t attempt suicide and that you are not currently suicidal is also consistent with someone who is, in fact, currently suicidal and wants another opportunity. that is to say, what he told his lawyers is not at all inconsistent with what supposedly happened later. It’s also worth noting that it was the cellmate’s lawyer who asked that the camera footage of their cell be preserved. Lastly, Epstein trying and failing to kill himself seems more likely than that particular cellmate trying and failing to kill Epstein. I don’t think what really happened will ever be clearer than mud, unfortunately.
      - belter 3y ago
        Did you notice cellmate means you are in the same cell? A suicide attempt but the cellmate said he saw or heard nothing? How big are these cells?
2-718-281-828 3y ago
same for his farewell letter in case of actual suicide. why would a guy like him go down without smearing people he felt betrayed by?

tootie 3y ago

I absolutely believe it. It's far more plausible than the alternative.

Ntrails 3y ago
I find that position _wild_.

V__ 3y ago

Because incompetance is often more probable than malice. Without knowing baselines, like how often these procedures were broken in general, these don't mean much. What if this happened literally every day?

MilStdJunkie 3y ago
Yuuuuuuup. Good eye. It's pointless without knowing the trend, which is how conspiracy theories work. Which sucks, because there are very real conspiracies out there, and the others are very often employed for cover. See also MiB / LSD experiments, where you dress up as Hasidic diamond merchants and visit whistleblowers with gargantuan amounts of experimental psychedelics. "Ha ha this guy thinks aliens are probing everyone" Epstein, for his part, yeah, I agree, probably was actually part of a conspiracy, a fall guy for an entirely government run honeypot. However, I don't have any reason to think this is all true.
- samstave 3y ago
  >>>It's pointless without knowing the trend, which is how conspiracy theories work. What? Conspiracy theories work specifically for seeing the trend over time. For example, I have no memory for what I ate yesterday, but I can recall news stories from as far back as the 80s which corroborate malfeasance decades later. Did you know that John McCain was a filthy grifting criminal who was involved in the savings and loan scandal, was a complete coverer for the Iran Contra debacle, and the CIAs BCCI money laundering scheme for their importing of drugs through Mena Arkansas, which was shielded by Bill Clinton, and for being a CIA minion was awarded the next POTUS position... Look into BCCI and a name you might be familiar with, Khoshoggi not the dismembered journalist by MBS, but his relative who was the arms dealer that sold his yacht to... donald trump. Who bragged about the purchase on nightly entertainment TV. "It's a big club, and you aint in it" -- George Carlin. The CIA runs the USA, and the drug trafficking and child trafficking industry, and Israel runs the CIA... Guess who was handling Epstein ;; Maxwell (AKA mossad)
  - gettodachoppa 3y ago
    >>> Look into BCCI and a name you might be familiar with, Khoshoggi not the dismembered journalist by MBS, but his relative who was the arms dealer that sold his yacht to... donald trump. Who bragged about the purchase on nightly entertainment TV. Damn, this is actually true. I just visited Wikipedia, and I did not expect what I learned there. I thought Jamal Kashoggi was just some journalist. I never looked into him. Turns out: -He worked at the Saudi equivalent of the CIA -He's the cousin of Dodi Al Fayed (the billionnaire who died in the car crash with Princess Diana) -He's the nephew of billionnaire arms dealer Adnan Kashoggi, who sold Donald Trump a $200M yacht -His grandfather was the personal doctor of the king of Saudi Arabia -Considering the amount of noise the US made about him, I also expected him to be a US citizen. But no, he wasn't even a US citizen. I've never in my whole life seen the US govt care this much about a foreigner dying abroad, even if they work for a US company. -George Soros' Open Society Foundation sued the Saudi government over his death I know HN is the sort of place where you get flagged for voicing your suspicions without linking some establishment-approved source that gives its blessing on a particular narrative. So I'll just say this: it feels to me me that this is a very surprising background for a mere journalist.
    - coliveira 3y ago
      Good. Now go to wikipedia again and learn about Felix Sater, and you'll see that Trump was also collaborating with the CIA to make connections and business with the Russian oligarchs. The web goes deeper than you can imagine.
      - samstave 3y ago
        Just wait until we see an AI crawler the masses can use... The next conspiracy will be AI code that is delivering information that cant be debunked regardless how (un)true. Thats the AI we fear.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      this is crazy interesting. but what's can be hypothesized based on that. all of that is basically just circumstantial at that.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
However, incompetence can be allowed to go unpunished if it helps the people with malicious intent. If it happened every day, then it's still a failure of the system and to my mind is indicative of a widespread problem of getting rid of inconvenient people.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
> how often these procedures were broken in general, these don't mean much. What if this happened literally every day? according to this Fox News article [1] his suicide was the first in 21 years. 1: https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides

roncesvalles 3y ago

Let's say you're Epstein, and on this night of all nights, you don't have a cellmate and the guards have stopped checking in on you every 30 minutes. If you were suicidal wouldn't you take the opportunity? The only remarkable coincidence here was that the cameras were malfunctioning. It's highly improbable that a jail camera system would be designed in a way that it can be switched off by frontline guards with no evidence of tamper.

RestlessMind 3y ago
found the mole on HN... tasked with spreading FUD about Epstein /s
DANmode 3y ago
Plausible. Highlights the focus being on the wrong part of the story (his death), when the events of his life are what need most scrutiny and tireless investigation.

belter 3y ago

Epstein's was the first recorded suicide at MCC in 21 years... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Correctional_Center,_New_York https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Correctional_Cent...

bandyaboot 3y ago
They had a near miss the month before when Epstein attempted suicide the first time.
- belter 3y ago
  You call it suicide attempt, but it seems Epstein said he was attacked by a cell mate that ended up being convicted of four murders. "Epstein told lawyers that cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione ‘roughed him up’" -https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstein-told-lawyers-that-cellmate-nicholas-tartaglione-roughed-him-up/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstein-told-lawyers-that-cell... "Ex-officer who shared cell with Jeffrey Epstein convicted of quadruple murder" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/07/jeffrey-epstein-cellmate-quadruple-murder-conviction https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/07/jeffrey-epst...
  - bandyaboot 3y ago
    The problem is that telling people that you didn’t attempt suicide and that you are not currently suicidal is also consistent with someone who is, in fact, currently suicidal and wants another opportunity. that is to say, what he told his lawyers is not at all inconsistent with what supposedly happened later. It’s also worth noting that it was the cellmate’s lawyer who asked that the camera footage of their cell be preserved. Lastly, Epstein trying and failing to kill himself seems more likely than that particular cellmate trying and failing to kill Epstein. I don’t think what really happened will ever be clearer than mud, unfortunately.
    - belter 3y ago
      Did you notice cellmate means you are in the same cell? A suicide attempt but the cellmate said he saw or heard nothing? How big are these cells?

2-718-281-828 3y ago

same for his farewell letter in case of actual suicide. why would a guy like him go down without smearing people he felt betrayed by?