4 ms·

Housing is not a human right. Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? Think about it. Why would we have any nice housing at all in that situation?

Housing is not a human right. Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? Think about it. Why would we have any nice housing at all in that situation? Why would anyone build it? These silly things like "x is a human right" miss the point. At some point people have to take responsibility.

ohgodplsno 3y ago
>Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? Me ? No. Us, as a society, where we decide to ? Abso-fucking-lutely. >Why would we have any nice housing at all in that situation? Why would anyone build it? Nothing prevents you from putting in more money to make yourself the fancy house you've dreamed of. You can decide to give 300k to your favorite fancy house builder to have a prettier house than the plebs living in state housing. The US has the ACA, yet as far as I know the US still has private, higher quality hospitals. Turns out, making something a right doesn't mean "everyone has to have access to the best in class", but "has to have access to something which guarantees livable conditions." >These silly things like "x is a human right" miss the point. At some point people have to take responsibility. These silly "people have to take responsibility" talking points mostly shows that you have no regard for human life and would rather perpetuate suffering than provide something as basic as housing to people. Then again, since almost 100% of your post history in the past three months is about "oh no being a landlord is hard", it seems that you actively benefit from misery.
- matchbok 3y ago
  The insults are childish and prove that your arguments are completely unserious. Going through my post history just tells me this is more about elevating your own status and opinion than actually having a dialogue. Please go live in some government-run housing before demanding that the poor do so. And look up "luxury belief". :)
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    >The insults are childish and prove that your arguments are completely unserious. Going through my post history just tells me this is more about elevating your own status and opinion than actually having a dialogue. There's no dialogue to be had with someone willing to leave people to die in the streets because "hurr durr they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps". Debate happens with reasonable positions, not with the depths of human indecency and Ayn-Randish takes. >Please go live in some government-run housing before demanding that the poor do so. I have been poor. I did. As a child, I lived in HLMs, which have been in existence in my country since 1894. As a student, I lived in student housing, that has existence since 1955. >And look up "luxury belief". :) Believing that people deserve a roof over their head without paying half of their income to a leech that did nothing be born with money is not a luxury belief.
    - matchbok 3y ago
      You are misrepresenting my opinion and values because I don't agree with your particular solution to the problem of homelessness. Your ideas are bad, proven time and time again that they don't work. Instead of debating the merits, you paint me as some caricature. Thus proving that you live and operate in a world so insular that you have no idea how the real world actually works. You have no data to back up your claims, only insults. This is why nobody takes arguments like yours seriously. I could very easily say you lack "human decency" by forcing the poor to live in run-down government housing. And that argument is just as strong as the one you are promoting. You need to recognize that you are putting in effort here to elevate your own status in some "in group", not actually trying to argue a position with data and facts. Armchair socialism is entertaining, usually promoted by wealthy kids who have very few problems of their own. Honestly, this is me trying to help you. Please talk to somebody (a real person) who has built a business. Broaden your perspective.
      - ohgodplsno 3y ago
        Do you realize that every single one of your arguments so far has been a straw man ? - First you pretend I'm trying to force you to build houses, which I'm not, I'm telling you it's the state's job to provide housing should none be available at reasonable prices. If you built a fancy house, sure, rent it for higher costs, if you can find a renter. If you built a house that barely matches a government built one... match government built rents. - Then you go on and pretend I'm trying to force the poor to live in government run units, which I'm not. Both because _many of them already do anyways_, and because I'm not saying to ban owning property. Merely that there should be a force preventing you from raising your rent for what happens to be a basic life necessity. - Then you go on and pretend that it is a luxury belief to have my positions, when I have been in the exact situations that are a problem, and even as of today, despite my situation being much better, a bit over 50% of my salary goes either to my landlord or to electricity/heating my home. Paying my landlord's loan isn't exactly my goal in life, sorry. - Then you go on and pretend that every government housing is run-down which... no ? I can't even find an answer to that because it's both not an argument _and_ a lie. - Then you go on and pretend that I'm doing this to elevate my own status in some "in group", without even considering for a single second that the reality of things is that I actively care for people and would rather see them in (basic) housing than cutting off a meal a day to pay off a landlord, or being out in the streets. > Please talk to somebody (a real person) who has built a business. Cool! I do on the daily. Also, being a landlord is not a business. A business has the added benefit of producing value. A landlord merely hoards housing. To finish up on that: "Your ideas are bad, proven time and time again that they don't work". Despite all the evil that stalinist policies and maoist policies have caused, their involvement in insuring that everyone has basic housing affordable and available to them meant amazing development from farmer focused countries to absolute powerhouses of manufacturing and knowledge. You can debate various 'communist' and 'socialist' policies all you want (not real communists state capitalism yadda yadda yadda), you can be very aware of the damage they caused, while still recognising that the one thing we're talking about is probably the one that actually fucking worked. This is me trying to help you: every single one of your arguments has been projection of what _you_ would do if you were in a situation like that. It is not healthy, and I recommend you take a deep look within at your own morality.
carlosjobim 3y ago
> Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? It's never been about that. Do you have a right to claim ownership of the land, that was created by God? Certainly neither you nor the people you inherited the land from or bought it from created it. It was there 1000 years ago, 100 000 years ago and 1 000 000 years ago. Yet you lay claim to it and demand that others pay you for using it. That's what it is about.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  there's nothing stopping you from taking it. this happens in many countries where there's little rule of law.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    There's some things stopping that, like the law you mentioned. But land redistribution by violent means have occurred before, like in China, and the Soviet Union most drastically in modern history. Is that what it takes? Should younger generations do a violent uprising with all the horrible consequences to be able to have a home? The "ownership" of land is one of the most strong abstract belief among humans. If I tell hacker news that I should not have to pay taxes because I have the right to my own body and work, the people here will react like that is crazy. If I tell hacker news that I have the right to some land that I bought, the people here will heartily agree. Even though that land was not created by anybody and stolen several times during history. We're in the situation right now when the majority of highly educated people and hard working people in the richest countries of the world has no chance of a future at all. Even something so primitive as Maoist revolution would give them a better shot at owning their own home than continuing to obey Western law and rules. How did things end like this?
freeone3000 3y ago
Then let me build my own house. Oh, I can’t, someone “owns” the land. Then I can at least stay in a tent somewhere. Oh, no, I can’t, the cops stole all my stuff. All of the alternatives have already been closed.

ohgodplsno 3y ago

>Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? Me ? No. Us, as a society, where we decide to ? Abso-fucking-lutely. >Why would we have any nice housing at all in that situation? Why would anyone build it? Nothing prevents you from putting in more money to make yourself the fancy house you've dreamed of. You can decide to give 300k to your favorite fancy house builder to have a prettier house than the plebs living in state housing. The US has the ACA, yet as far as I know the US still has private, higher quality hospitals. Turns out, making something a right doesn't mean "everyone has to have access to the best in class", but "has to have access to something which guarantees livable conditions." >These silly things like "x is a human right" miss the point. At some point people have to take responsibility. These silly "people have to take responsibility" talking points mostly shows that you have no regard for human life and would rather perpetuate suffering than provide something as basic as housing to people. Then again, since almost 100% of your post history in the past three months is about "oh no being a landlord is hard", it seems that you actively benefit from misery.

matchbok 3y ago
The insults are childish and prove that your arguments are completely unserious. Going through my post history just tells me this is more about elevating your own status and opinion than actually having a dialogue. Please go live in some government-run housing before demanding that the poor do so. And look up "luxury belief". :)
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  >The insults are childish and prove that your arguments are completely unserious. Going through my post history just tells me this is more about elevating your own status and opinion than actually having a dialogue. There's no dialogue to be had with someone willing to leave people to die in the streets because "hurr durr they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps". Debate happens with reasonable positions, not with the depths of human indecency and Ayn-Randish takes. >Please go live in some government-run housing before demanding that the poor do so. I have been poor. I did. As a child, I lived in HLMs, which have been in existence in my country since 1894. As a student, I lived in student housing, that has existence since 1955. >And look up "luxury belief". :) Believing that people deserve a roof over their head without paying half of their income to a leech that did nothing be born with money is not a luxury belief.
  - matchbok 3y ago
    You are misrepresenting my opinion and values because I don't agree with your particular solution to the problem of homelessness. Your ideas are bad, proven time and time again that they don't work. Instead of debating the merits, you paint me as some caricature. Thus proving that you live and operate in a world so insular that you have no idea how the real world actually works. You have no data to back up your claims, only insults. This is why nobody takes arguments like yours seriously. I could very easily say you lack "human decency" by forcing the poor to live in run-down government housing. And that argument is just as strong as the one you are promoting. You need to recognize that you are putting in effort here to elevate your own status in some "in group", not actually trying to argue a position with data and facts. Armchair socialism is entertaining, usually promoted by wealthy kids who have very few problems of their own. Honestly, this is me trying to help you. Please talk to somebody (a real person) who has built a business. Broaden your perspective.
    - ohgodplsno 3y ago
      Do you realize that every single one of your arguments so far has been a straw man ? - First you pretend I'm trying to force you to build houses, which I'm not, I'm telling you it's the state's job to provide housing should none be available at reasonable prices. If you built a fancy house, sure, rent it for higher costs, if you can find a renter. If you built a house that barely matches a government built one... match government built rents. - Then you go on and pretend I'm trying to force the poor to live in government run units, which I'm not. Both because _many of them already do anyways_, and because I'm not saying to ban owning property. Merely that there should be a force preventing you from raising your rent for what happens to be a basic life necessity. - Then you go on and pretend that it is a luxury belief to have my positions, when I have been in the exact situations that are a problem, and even as of today, despite my situation being much better, a bit over 50% of my salary goes either to my landlord or to electricity/heating my home. Paying my landlord's loan isn't exactly my goal in life, sorry. - Then you go on and pretend that every government housing is run-down which... no ? I can't even find an answer to that because it's both not an argument _and_ a lie. - Then you go on and pretend that I'm doing this to elevate my own status in some "in group", without even considering for a single second that the reality of things is that I actively care for people and would rather see them in (basic) housing than cutting off a meal a day to pay off a landlord, or being out in the streets. > Please talk to somebody (a real person) who has built a business. Cool! I do on the daily. Also, being a landlord is not a business. A business has the added benefit of producing value. A landlord merely hoards housing. To finish up on that: "Your ideas are bad, proven time and time again that they don't work". Despite all the evil that stalinist policies and maoist policies have caused, their involvement in insuring that everyone has basic housing affordable and available to them meant amazing development from farmer focused countries to absolute powerhouses of manufacturing and knowledge. You can debate various 'communist' and 'socialist' policies all you want (not real communists state capitalism yadda yadda yadda), you can be very aware of the damage they caused, while still recognising that the one thing we're talking about is probably the one that actually fucking worked. This is me trying to help you: every single one of your arguments has been projection of what _you_ would do if you were in a situation like that. It is not healthy, and I recommend you take a deep look within at your own morality.

carlosjobim 3y ago

> Do you have a right to force me to build you a house? It's never been about that. Do you have a right to claim ownership of the land, that was created by God? Certainly neither you nor the people you inherited the land from or bought it from created it. It was there 1000 years ago, 100 000 years ago and 1 000 000 years ago. Yet you lay claim to it and demand that others pay you for using it. That's what it is about.

endisneigh 3y ago
there's nothing stopping you from taking it. this happens in many countries where there's little rule of law.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  There's some things stopping that, like the law you mentioned. But land redistribution by violent means have occurred before, like in China, and the Soviet Union most drastically in modern history. Is that what it takes? Should younger generations do a violent uprising with all the horrible consequences to be able to have a home? The "ownership" of land is one of the most strong abstract belief among humans. If I tell hacker news that I should not have to pay taxes because I have the right to my own body and work, the people here will react like that is crazy. If I tell hacker news that I have the right to some land that I bought, the people here will heartily agree. Even though that land was not created by anybody and stolen several times during history. We're in the situation right now when the majority of highly educated people and hard working people in the richest countries of the world has no chance of a future at all. Even something so primitive as Maoist revolution would give them a better shot at owning their own home than continuing to obey Western law and rules. How did things end like this?

freeone3000 3y ago

Then let me build my own house. Oh, I can’t, someone “owns” the land. Then I can at least stay in a tent somewhere. Oh, no, I can’t, the cops stole all my stuff. All of the alternatives have already been closed.