11 ms·

> the point of lobbyists ??? There is no "point" to lobbyists, its literally a guy paying to play. Take any industry expert from any industry and unless they t

> the point of lobbyists ??? There is no "point" to lobbyists, its literally a guy paying to play. Take any industry expert from any industry and unless they themselves are a lobbyist I can near guarantee they would be happier if lobbying was illegal with very harsh punishment

hutzlibu 4y ago
"if lobbying was illegal with very harsh punishment" I suppose you mean professional lobbying, with the purpose of influencing laws to make money? Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project for example, than this is also lobbying. It is just people using influence. You cannot really make that illegal. You can force the parties involved for transparency and punish bribery, but you cannot make it illegal for people to talk to politicians. Even when it is done "professional". The problem in reality is, that when you look closely, in effect lots of lobbying is indeed bribery. (most of the indirect kind, like informal promising lucrative jobs after their terms are over, or giving overpaid talks). And that is and remains illegal.
- blitzar 4y ago
  When you write a letter to your congressman ... lobbying.
- triska 4y ago
  So far, I have never before seen an environment group trying to block a mining project referred to as "lobbying". Is the term really that generally used in practice?
  - pedrosorio 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying “Lobbying, which usually involves direct, face-to-face contact in cooperation with support staff that may not meet directly face-to-face, is done by many types of people, associations and organized groups, including individuals on a personal level in their capacity as private citizens, it is also practiced by corporations in the private sector serving their own interests, by non-profits and non-governmental organizations in the voluntary sector, by fellow legislators or government officials influencing each other through legislative affairs (legislative assistance) in the public sector, and by advocacy groups (interest groups).”
    - tinus_hn 4y ago
      Selectively forgot this part: > is the act of lawfully
      - jerojero 3y ago
        Just because something is lawful doesn't make it good or desirable. I'm sure you can think of many historical examples of lawful actions that are now considered a crime. The opposite is also true. Many laws are a product of the time they were written and in turn, a product of the people who have written them. Why is lobbying legal in the USA? Why is it coded in law? These are genuine questions that people can and should ask.
        tinus_hn 3y ago
        It’s a very important distinction, if lobbying is not lawful lobbyists are crooks. If it is lawful it’s just a practice that does not agree with your personal preference. The idea that lobbyists are ‘the man’ corruptly influencing bent politicians is tiresome and to paint it as the truth is not productive. If you want to stop lobbying vote for politicians that want to stop it or run for office yourself. However once you are in office you might note why it exists, as did many before you.
        jerojero 3y ago
        But if the lobbying laws have been passed by the people who were previously unlawfully doing lobbying then what kind of validaty do they have to begin with? I mean to me the big issue is that these are laws that corrupt democracy (in the sense that they benefit the few powerful over the many powerless). And your solution of "just vote them out" is not really feasible because both democrats and Republicans (the only two realistic options you have given the electoral system) are pro lobbying! But is the general population in favour of lobbying? I don't know but I don't think so. I personally advocate for a new way of doing politics altogether. As I don't think the current system really works well to properly channel the will of the majority of the people in responsible ways. And lobbying is much, much stricter in pretty much every other country in the world. So the US is an outlier here.
  - bratbag 4y ago
    Media focuses on the corrupt side of lobbying because it sells rage clicks. The fact is without the non-corrupt side of lobbying, the lawyers whom make up most of the legislature wouldn't have the first clue how their legislation interacts with complex industry specific real world systems.
    - fafqg 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - stavros 4y ago
        The only thing worse than your spelling is your opinions on child labor.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 3y ago
        [dead]
        stavros 3y ago
        It was a joke. The joke was that he misspelled "minors" and wanted kids to work. I thought it might be too obscure, it looks like it is.
        dang 3y ago
        Ok, I see. Sorry!
        stavros 3y ago
        No problem, I was thinking "nobody will get this" as I was writing it, but I figured the payoff would be big for someone who did get it. I didn't realize it might look like an attack, partly because it's such a random thing to say in a thread where kids aren't mentioned and the spelling is correct, but I was wrong.
  - juujian 4y ago
    Reading about the topic of lobbying about every day for work. The more common term to see is "advocacy" but i would not raise an eyebrow if I saw the saw the verb lobby used to describe an environment organization's activities.
- frankfrankfrank 4y ago
  >Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project Which is also usually driven by financial interests under cover of virtue. It is most obvious in Europe where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes." Can you cite concrete examples?
    - Clubber 3y ago
      I would imagine lobbying to enact a higher barrier to entry through regulation to reduce potential entrants to an existing market.
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  Politics is just filthy business. I know I’m being short changed and should pay attention, but it is unsustainable with the more I know. This is probably how corruption takes over a society. Something I thought I’d only ever read in history books, but now I have the privilege of living through it. Oh joy.
  - DSingularity 4y ago
    You know how we have this image that eastern countries are corrupt? Once you recognize the blatant corruption that is “lobbying” America doesn’t look so pure.
    - HeckFeck 4y ago
      Chinese state officials don't have to look far when they want to point out the hypocrisy of the charges the US levies against their country. I've seen them take easy shots on Twitter just like the left vs right partisanship, "haha your side is hypocritical!" "Well so is yours!" and on and on... I wish we had a better example to show to the world.
kuhewa 4y ago
This is like saying any engineer would like it to be illegal to have people paid to write documentation. There's an art to communication, especially in niche area like getting the ear of the right legislators and translating a topic in terms they will understand. Louis Rossman hired lobbyists to get right to repair legislation passed. If hiring a lobbyist is illegal it wouldn't prevent lobbying, it will keep occuring just in wink wink nudge nudge smoke filled back room quid pro quo sort of channels and less accessibly.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tough 4y ago
  Nah, It's just corruption smoke and mirrors, it's just wealth transfer in exchange for kickbacks but adding a middleman some how makes it legal. Like SuperPAC's and all that bullshit
  - kuhewa 4y ago
    Yes, but making it illegal would mean well meaning groups also can't bend the ear of politicians when they need to. The heavily moneyed interests don't really need professional lobbyists so much when they can offer high six figure consulting salaries to politicians once they leave office, have former company people in govt positions, can communicate through campaign funding etc. Bigger broader problem. Meanwhile a right to repair advocate very much could benefit from hiring a guy that knows the office hours of the legislator and who the best staffers would be to float an idea with.
    - hanselot 4y ago
      So what you are saying is that we should allow people with bad intentions the ability to influence politicians monetarily (literally bribery), so the few morsels of good money that can buy any influence may have a chance to also be considered for inclusion? Edit: I see your point wrt alternative bribery schemes existing, and isn't the solution perhaps for those schemes to also be shut down, instead of allowing it because some good might come of it? Hmmmm, it's difficult not to assume you are yourself a lobbyist or politician if you take this position, given that the coffers of those with ill intent are vastly more lined than the alternative...
conradev 4y ago
Lobbyists lobby for causes, for money, that is their point. If you run a small solar company, it is in your best interest to support SEIA, the member association (lobbyist) for the solar industry. You might think the system is dumb, and it is, but if you don’t understand why it exists, you can’t design a replacement. Lawmakers and their teams legislate on topics that they are far from experts in, so they regularly need to consult with experts. Those experts, no matter how you select them, will harbor biases. How do you get the relevant expertise to the lawmakers? I’ve talked to a chief of staff for a senator and at that level it is a lot of responding to what is next on the agenda, and less deciding.
cronix 4y ago
"Redress of Grievances" to the government is specifically why the First Amendment was written giving us Freedom of Speech. I don't really care if someone is "happy" about it or not.
randomdata 4y ago
The point of lobbyists is to have someone talk to the elected representatives to let them know what their job is. It would be kind of silly to go to all of the trouble of electing a representative and then never talk to them again. They most certainly are not mind readers. Same reason you talk to your representative on the regular so that your position is known. It's why you hired someone to represent you, after all. As before, the person you hired is not a mind reader. You have to talk to him. Like any employer, if you don't keep in regular touch with your employees they are not going to do the job you expect of them.

hutzlibu 4y ago

"if lobbying was illegal with very harsh punishment" I suppose you mean professional lobbying, with the purpose of influencing laws to make money? Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project for example, than this is also lobbying. It is just people using influence. You cannot really make that illegal. You can force the parties involved for transparency and punish bribery, but you cannot make it illegal for people to talk to politicians. Even when it is done "professional". The problem in reality is, that when you look closely, in effect lots of lobbying is indeed bribery. (most of the indirect kind, like informal promising lucrative jobs after their terms are over, or giving overpaid talks). And that is and remains illegal.

blitzar 4y ago
When you write a letter to your congressman ... lobbying.
triska 4y ago
So far, I have never before seen an environment group trying to block a mining project referred to as "lobbying". Is the term really that generally used in practice?
- pedrosorio 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying “Lobbying, which usually involves direct, face-to-face contact in cooperation with support staff that may not meet directly face-to-face, is done by many types of people, associations and organized groups, including individuals on a personal level in their capacity as private citizens, it is also practiced by corporations in the private sector serving their own interests, by non-profits and non-governmental organizations in the voluntary sector, by fellow legislators or government officials influencing each other through legislative affairs (legislative assistance) in the public sector, and by advocacy groups (interest groups).”
  - tinus_hn 4y ago
    Selectively forgot this part: > is the act of lawfully
    - jerojero 3y ago
      Just because something is lawful doesn't make it good or desirable. I'm sure you can think of many historical examples of lawful actions that are now considered a crime. The opposite is also true. Many laws are a product of the time they were written and in turn, a product of the people who have written them. Why is lobbying legal in the USA? Why is it coded in law? These are genuine questions that people can and should ask.
      - tinus_hn 3y ago
        It’s a very important distinction, if lobbying is not lawful lobbyists are crooks. If it is lawful it’s just a practice that does not agree with your personal preference. The idea that lobbyists are ‘the man’ corruptly influencing bent politicians is tiresome and to paint it as the truth is not productive. If you want to stop lobbying vote for politicians that want to stop it or run for office yourself. However once you are in office you might note why it exists, as did many before you.
        jerojero 3y ago
        But if the lobbying laws have been passed by the people who were previously unlawfully doing lobbying then what kind of validaty do they have to begin with? I mean to me the big issue is that these are laws that corrupt democracy (in the sense that they benefit the few powerful over the many powerless). And your solution of "just vote them out" is not really feasible because both democrats and Republicans (the only two realistic options you have given the electoral system) are pro lobbying! But is the general population in favour of lobbying? I don't know but I don't think so. I personally advocate for a new way of doing politics altogether. As I don't think the current system really works well to properly channel the will of the majority of the people in responsible ways. And lobbying is much, much stricter in pretty much every other country in the world. So the US is an outlier here.
- bratbag 4y ago
  Media focuses on the corrupt side of lobbying because it sells rage clicks. The fact is without the non-corrupt side of lobbying, the lawyers whom make up most of the legislature wouldn't have the first clue how their legislation interacts with complex industry specific real world systems.
  - fafqg 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - stavros 4y ago
      The only thing worse than your spelling is your opinions on child labor.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 3y ago
        [dead]
        stavros 3y ago
        It was a joke. The joke was that he misspelled "minors" and wanted kids to work. I thought it might be too obscure, it looks like it is.
        dang 3y ago
        Ok, I see. Sorry!
        stavros 3y ago
        No problem, I was thinking "nobody will get this" as I was writing it, but I figured the payoff would be big for someone who did get it. I didn't realize it might look like an attack, partly because it's such a random thing to say in a thread where kids aren't mentioned and the spelling is correct, but I was wrong.
- juujian 4y ago
  Reading about the topic of lobbying about every day for work. The more common term to see is "advocacy" but i would not raise an eyebrow if I saw the saw the verb lobby used to describe an environment organization's activities.
frankfrankfrank 4y ago
>Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project Which is also usually driven by financial interests under cover of virtue. It is most obvious in Europe where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes." Can you cite concrete examples?
  - Clubber 3y ago
    I would imagine lobbying to enact a higher barrier to entry through regulation to reduce potential entrants to an existing market.
HeckFeck 4y ago
Politics is just filthy business. I know I’m being short changed and should pay attention, but it is unsustainable with the more I know. This is probably how corruption takes over a society. Something I thought I’d only ever read in history books, but now I have the privilege of living through it. Oh joy.
- DSingularity 4y ago
  You know how we have this image that eastern countries are corrupt? Once you recognize the blatant corruption that is “lobbying” America doesn’t look so pure.
  - HeckFeck 4y ago
    Chinese state officials don't have to look far when they want to point out the hypocrisy of the charges the US levies against their country. I've seen them take easy shots on Twitter just like the left vs right partisanship, "haha your side is hypocritical!" "Well so is yours!" and on and on... I wish we had a better example to show to the world.

kuhewa 4y ago

This is like saying any engineer would like it to be illegal to have people paid to write documentation. There's an art to communication, especially in niche area like getting the ear of the right legislators and translating a topic in terms they will understand. Louis Rossman hired lobbyists to get right to repair legislation passed. If hiring a lobbyist is illegal it wouldn't prevent lobbying, it will keep occuring just in wink wink nudge nudge smoke filled back room quid pro quo sort of channels and less accessibly.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tough 4y ago
Nah, It's just corruption smoke and mirrors, it's just wealth transfer in exchange for kickbacks but adding a middleman some how makes it legal. Like SuperPAC's and all that bullshit
- kuhewa 4y ago
  Yes, but making it illegal would mean well meaning groups also can't bend the ear of politicians when they need to. The heavily moneyed interests don't really need professional lobbyists so much when they can offer high six figure consulting salaries to politicians once they leave office, have former company people in govt positions, can communicate through campaign funding etc. Bigger broader problem. Meanwhile a right to repair advocate very much could benefit from hiring a guy that knows the office hours of the legislator and who the best staffers would be to float an idea with.
  - hanselot 4y ago
    So what you are saying is that we should allow people with bad intentions the ability to influence politicians monetarily (literally bribery), so the few morsels of good money that can buy any influence may have a chance to also be considered for inclusion? Edit: I see your point wrt alternative bribery schemes existing, and isn't the solution perhaps for those schemes to also be shut down, instead of allowing it because some good might come of it? Hmmmm, it's difficult not to assume you are yourself a lobbyist or politician if you take this position, given that the coffers of those with ill intent are vastly more lined than the alternative...

conradev 4y ago

Lobbyists lobby for causes, for money, that is their point. If you run a small solar company, it is in your best interest to support SEIA, the member association (lobbyist) for the solar industry. You might think the system is dumb, and it is, but if you don’t understand why it exists, you can’t design a replacement. Lawmakers and their teams legislate on topics that they are far from experts in, so they regularly need to consult with experts. Those experts, no matter how you select them, will harbor biases. How do you get the relevant expertise to the lawmakers? I’ve talked to a chief of staff for a senator and at that level it is a lot of responding to what is next on the agenda, and less deciding.

cronix 4y ago

"Redress of Grievances" to the government is specifically why the First Amendment was written giving us Freedom of Speech. I don't really care if someone is "happy" about it or not.

randomdata 4y ago

The point of lobbyists is to have someone talk to the elected representatives to let them know what their job is. It would be kind of silly to go to all of the trouble of electing a representative and then never talk to them again. They most certainly are not mind readers. Same reason you talk to your representative on the regular so that your position is known. It's why you hired someone to represent you, after all. As before, the person you hired is not a mind reader. You have to talk to him. Like any employer, if you don't keep in regular touch with your employees they are not going to do the job you expect of them.