5 ms·

Because this planned obsolete stuff is slowly killing us and yielding would probably only make it worse?

by dislikedtom2 3y ago

eru 3y ago
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or do you just want to control what other people are doing?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- atoav 3y ago
  Gotcha, so you are also against electrical regulations like requirements to use tested insulators etc? Because some regulation is actually useful in a world where consumers cannot be expected to know everything and be able to test everything. And some assumptions about a product should hold true as well. E.g. the assumption should be that if I buy a desktop CPU today I should be able to use it for at least n years. Because how would you know this beforehand? If Intel made an optimization that turns out to be a security flaw, that is totally their fault and they should cover it. This is nothing any consumer could have known (and rherefore avoided buying) beforehand. This is the cost of taking risks in business. It seems to be a popular stance these days to shill for corporations and protect them from ever having their risks realized. But that makes the products and the world we live in worse for everybody and gives you nothing at all.
  - eru 3y ago
    > And some assumptions about a product should hold true as well. E.g. the assumption should be that if I buy a desktop CPU today I should be able to use it for at least n years. Because how would you know this beforehand? You ask the manufacturer, duh? If they lie, that's fraud. If you don't like the answer, you don't buy. > If Intel made an optimization that turns out to be a security flaw, that is totally their fault and they should cover it. This is nothing any consumer could have known (and therefore avoided buying) beforehand. This is the cost of taking risks in business. Customers and suppliers should be able to allocate such risks between themselves however they like. You can fiddle with what the default should be, in case they haven't negotiated anything. But if both customer and supplier agree, the customer should be allowed to bear such a risk. > It seems to be a popular stance these days to shill for corporations and protect them from ever having their risks realized. Why? I have nothing against any particular allocation of the risks, as long as all involved parties agree. (Otherwise, they just don't make a deal.) > Gotcha, so you are also against electrical regulations like requirements to use tested insulators etc? If you claim they are tested, you better not lie. Otherwise it's fraud and you should be held liable. If a customer wants to buy untested insulators, who am I to keep them? I mean, in the most extreme case, a customer can buy bread and try to use it as an insulator, if they really want to. There's nothing the supplier can do about that.
  - dannyw 3y ago
    There is a huge difference between electrical safety regulations, and a side channel attack that has never been seen to be exploited in the wild.
    - atoav 3y ago
      If that sidechannel attack that has not been seen in the wild leads to me having to throw my CPU/computer into the bin because it is unsopported on a up to date OS for that reason, there isn't. How should I, as a consumer, have voted against this with my wallet, before it happened? We can argue whether this is the fault of the hardware manufacturer or the software company that sells the OS, but I am 100% sure that no consumer should take the blame for "not doing their research".
      - eru 3y ago
        > How should I, as a consumer, have voted against this with my wallet, before it happened? That's what long term reputation is for.
        atoav 3y ago
        So which desktop processor manufacturer other than the mentioned two do you recommend? ARM?
        eru 3y ago
        Me! I happily resell you Intel processors at a 10x markup but you get a ten year warranty that I'll replace your processor with a new one of no worse specs, if similar vulnerabilities get discovered. Details to be negotiated. (More seriously: you don't need a new manufacturer. Someone else can do the warranty at a price. That's actually what eg Apple Care: if a part inside your device catches on fire, Apple will replace it, even though they did not necessarily manufacture that part. I have no clue whether their particular policy covers the vulnerabilities we are talking about. But you can easily imagine a variant of such an insurance policy that does.)
- rablackburn 3y ago
  Not put words in OPs mouth, but saying they “just want to control people” is perhaps not what they’re going for. Since you raised the valid point of “why make everyone pay”, it seems they (OP) are concerned that currently _everyone_ is paying for the externalities of shitty electronics and the associated ewaste. Of course these kinds of externalities are impossible (or just really hard?) to rectify at the individual-action level, its a collective action problem. So they raised the interesting point why not target the specific companies who manufactured this faulty product and require them to clean-up the problem they’ve created. If nothing else, it’s a useful conversation to have?
  - eru 3y ago
    Sure, it can be a useful conversation. Assume for the sake of argument, that I agree that there are externalities and that we should do something about them. The economics textbook tells you the simple solution: tax the externalities. In our case, you might want to tax e-waste (or directly tax whatever is bad about e-waste, like heavy metals or so.) Then let the market figure out how to deal with it. Perhaps offering extended warranties is the way to go? Perhaps developing compostable computers is the way to go? Perhaps using fewer computers is the way to go? Perhaps just sucking it up, doing nothing and paying for the externalities is the way to go? It's not at all obvious to me which of these (if any) is the best solution. And I don't have high hopes than any government would figure out the best solution either. Different people might even have different answers, and suppliers can provide for this diversity. This simple tax avoids a lot of regulatory complexity. Remember, that regulatory complexity leads to loopholes and regulatory capture and endless lobbying.
    - aziaziazi 3y ago
      The tax you propose is not as simple as you suggest : Do you tax on material weight ? But bigger sized systems tends to be easier to repair/recycle than nano electronics. They also often last longer. Do you tax on raw materials ? That would exclude all the junk made abroad. Or on components ? That would make a gigantic and perpetually changing list to maintain, creating an incentive to always create alternatives only needed to game this tax. Hope does that address the externality “not infinite material rarefaction” ? Making thinks more expensive just make them less affordable for a part of the population while the other part can not care much especially for cheap disposable(!) small devices. I don’t have the perfect solution but IMHO we need regulations, not tax. Creating an obligatory (long) warranty would push the society in the sustainability direction. I don’t need 2$ led lamp, an even slimmer keyboard or a 120hz screen, just want it to last way more (or being able to make repair) that 2/3 product cycle time frame defined by the corp business team. Who want to say to their children “enjoy this tech while there’s still some rare earth left” ?
Gigachad 3y ago
Having a warranty on CPUs wouldn't have saved the environment. It probably would have made things worse as every user returned their computers for a new one.

Because this planned obsolete stuff is slowly killing us and yielding would probably only make it worse?

eru 3y ago

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or do you just want to control what other people are doing?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
atoav 3y ago
Gotcha, so you are also against electrical regulations like requirements to use tested insulators etc? Because some regulation is actually useful in a world where consumers cannot be expected to know everything and be able to test everything. And some assumptions about a product should hold true as well. E.g. the assumption should be that if I buy a desktop CPU today I should be able to use it for at least n years. Because how would you know this beforehand? If Intel made an optimization that turns out to be a security flaw, that is totally their fault and they should cover it. This is nothing any consumer could have known (and rherefore avoided buying) beforehand. This is the cost of taking risks in business. It seems to be a popular stance these days to shill for corporations and protect them from ever having their risks realized. But that makes the products and the world we live in worse for everybody and gives you nothing at all.
- eru 3y ago
  > And some assumptions about a product should hold true as well. E.g. the assumption should be that if I buy a desktop CPU today I should be able to use it for at least n years. Because how would you know this beforehand? You ask the manufacturer, duh? If they lie, that's fraud. If you don't like the answer, you don't buy. > If Intel made an optimization that turns out to be a security flaw, that is totally their fault and they should cover it. This is nothing any consumer could have known (and therefore avoided buying) beforehand. This is the cost of taking risks in business. Customers and suppliers should be able to allocate such risks between themselves however they like. You can fiddle with what the default should be, in case they haven't negotiated anything. But if both customer and supplier agree, the customer should be allowed to bear such a risk. > It seems to be a popular stance these days to shill for corporations and protect them from ever having their risks realized. Why? I have nothing against any particular allocation of the risks, as long as all involved parties agree. (Otherwise, they just don't make a deal.) > Gotcha, so you are also against electrical regulations like requirements to use tested insulators etc? If you claim they are tested, you better not lie. Otherwise it's fraud and you should be held liable. If a customer wants to buy untested insulators, who am I to keep them? I mean, in the most extreme case, a customer can buy bread and try to use it as an insulator, if they really want to. There's nothing the supplier can do about that.
- dannyw 3y ago
  There is a huge difference between electrical safety regulations, and a side channel attack that has never been seen to be exploited in the wild.
  - atoav 3y ago
    If that sidechannel attack that has not been seen in the wild leads to me having to throw my CPU/computer into the bin because it is unsopported on a up to date OS for that reason, there isn't. How should I, as a consumer, have voted against this with my wallet, before it happened? We can argue whether this is the fault of the hardware manufacturer or the software company that sells the OS, but I am 100% sure that no consumer should take the blame for "not doing their research".
    - eru 3y ago
      > How should I, as a consumer, have voted against this with my wallet, before it happened? That's what long term reputation is for.
      - atoav 3y ago
        So which desktop processor manufacturer other than the mentioned two do you recommend? ARM?
        eru 3y ago
        Me! I happily resell you Intel processors at a 10x markup but you get a ten year warranty that I'll replace your processor with a new one of no worse specs, if similar vulnerabilities get discovered. Details to be negotiated. (More seriously: you don't need a new manufacturer. Someone else can do the warranty at a price. That's actually what eg Apple Care: if a part inside your device catches on fire, Apple will replace it, even though they did not necessarily manufacture that part. I have no clue whether their particular policy covers the vulnerabilities we are talking about. But you can easily imagine a variant of such an insurance policy that does.)
rablackburn 3y ago
Not put words in OPs mouth, but saying they “just want to control people” is perhaps not what they’re going for. Since you raised the valid point of “why make everyone pay”, it seems they (OP) are concerned that currently _everyone_ is paying for the externalities of shitty electronics and the associated ewaste. Of course these kinds of externalities are impossible (or just really hard?) to rectify at the individual-action level, its a collective action problem. So they raised the interesting point why not target the specific companies who manufactured this faulty product and require them to clean-up the problem they’ve created. If nothing else, it’s a useful conversation to have?
- eru 3y ago
  Sure, it can be a useful conversation. Assume for the sake of argument, that I agree that there are externalities and that we should do something about them. The economics textbook tells you the simple solution: tax the externalities. In our case, you might want to tax e-waste (or directly tax whatever is bad about e-waste, like heavy metals or so.) Then let the market figure out how to deal with it. Perhaps offering extended warranties is the way to go? Perhaps developing compostable computers is the way to go? Perhaps using fewer computers is the way to go? Perhaps just sucking it up, doing nothing and paying for the externalities is the way to go? It's not at all obvious to me which of these (if any) is the best solution. And I don't have high hopes than any government would figure out the best solution either. Different people might even have different answers, and suppliers can provide for this diversity. This simple tax avoids a lot of regulatory complexity. Remember, that regulatory complexity leads to loopholes and regulatory capture and endless lobbying.
  - aziaziazi 3y ago
    The tax you propose is not as simple as you suggest : Do you tax on material weight ? But bigger sized systems tends to be easier to repair/recycle than nano electronics. They also often last longer. Do you tax on raw materials ? That would exclude all the junk made abroad. Or on components ? That would make a gigantic and perpetually changing list to maintain, creating an incentive to always create alternatives only needed to game this tax. Hope does that address the externality “not infinite material rarefaction” ? Making thinks more expensive just make them less affordable for a part of the population while the other part can not care much especially for cheap disposable(!) small devices. I don’t have the perfect solution but IMHO we need regulations, not tax. Creating an obligatory (long) warranty would push the society in the sustainability direction. I don’t need 2$ led lamp, an even slimmer keyboard or a 120hz screen, just want it to last way more (or being able to make repair) that 2/3 product cycle time frame defined by the corp business team. Who want to say to their children “enjoy this tech while there’s still some rare earth left” ?

Gigachad 3y ago

Having a warranty on CPUs wouldn't have saved the environment. It probably would have made things worse as every user returned their computers for a new one.