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> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evi

> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evidence to the contrary.)

zbrozek 3y ago
Space heating matters and everything else is basically noise.
rlg2161 3y ago
For the average American, 4 devices in their home - water heaters, furnaces, stoves and gas powered clothes driers - account 95% of residential emissions [1]. Residential energy use accounts for ~20% of US annual carbon emissions [2]. The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split (if we bring grid emissions to 0 but don’t exchange these natural gas devices, carbon intensity remains at half of what it is today). Therefore, we can conclude that these 4 appliances in residential properties account for 10% of US carbon footprint. You could potentially make an argument that stoves are not the lions share of those emissions - but even if they only represent 10% of residential building emissions, that’s still 1% of US carbon emissions annually (which is a huge number when expressed in tons of CO2) [1] https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructure-home-report https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructu... - Chart 4 [2] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922205117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922205117
- iamdamian 3y ago
  I appreciate you digging up this information, this is exactly what's been lacking in press coverage of the issue. If you're telling me that fully eliminating gas stoves in the U.S. (something that will not happen in our lifetimes and will come at great political and personal cost) is going to reduce U.S.-specific emissions by just 1%, I think I'm even more convinced that this regulation should not have been passed. What am I missing?
  - justeleblanc 3y ago
    We can get rid of a whole percent in emissions by giving up nothing important, and you think it's not a regulation that the government should pass?! What should the threshold for a regulation to pass, in your opinion? Should it cut single-handedly emissions by 2% on its own? 5%? 10%? 50%?
    - iamdamian 3y ago
      Based on the information you've provided, I don't think we can get rid of a whole percent, since that would require the entire country to completely get rid of gas stoves and also for their new electric stoves to be powered by something that does not produce emissions. I know you'll disagree, but my take is that the upside (<1% savings over the course of, say, 30 years) is outweighed by the downside (lack of ability to cook or boil water during a power outage, far worse cooking experience).
      - argiopetech 3y ago
        Agreed that 1% of the United States' 28% of global CO2 emissions is negligible in the grand global scheme. Additionally, the energy cost of creating new stoves with significantly more complex internals (both due to the constant march of technology and the relative complexity of electric or induction cooktops versus gas) can't be overnighted.
    - baggy_trough 3y ago
      You think it’s nothing important. Others disagree, and get angry when they are forced to obey your preferences.
      - justeleblanc 3y ago
        And I get angry when selfish people refuse to do anything to lower their emissions and impact me and my family.
        3y ago
- HWR_14 3y ago
  I find a flaw with your argument. The question is not "are the major gas appliances the primary drivers for household emissions". That seems true and obvious. It is "does replacing them with electrical versions lower total emissions"? Meanwhile, you seem to be using different definitions of household emissions. Your first source about 95% seems to be talking about direct emissions, ignoring the impact of electricity generation. Your second source about the size of the problem (20%) seems to include electric production.
  - rlg2161 3y ago
    Paragraph 2 of my response: > The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split (if we bring grid emissions to 0 but don’t exchange these natural gas devices, carbon intensity remains at half of what it is today). Therefore, we can conclude that these 4 appliances in residential properties account for 10% of US carbon footprint. To your first question - the answer is yes; replacing gas appliances with modern electric appliances is less carbon intensive, even if the electricity is produced by fossil fuel combustion. This will become increasingly true as the grid gets greener over time and the carbon intensity of electricity production continues to drop

> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evidence to the contrary.)

zbrozek 3y ago

Space heating matters and everything else is basically noise.

rlg2161 3y ago

For the average American, 4 devices in their home - water heaters, furnaces, stoves and gas powered clothes driers - account 95% of residential emissions [1]. Residential energy use accounts for ~20% of US annual carbon emissions [2]. The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split (if we bring grid emissions to 0 but don’t exchange these natural gas devices, carbon intensity remains at half of what it is today). Therefore, we can conclude that these 4 appliances in residential properties account for 10% of US carbon footprint. You could potentially make an argument that stoves are not the lions share of those emissions - but even if they only represent 10% of residential building emissions, that’s still 1% of US carbon emissions annually (which is a huge number when expressed in tons of CO2) [1] https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructure-home-report https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructu... - Chart 4 [2] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922205117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922205117

iamdamian 3y ago
I appreciate you digging up this information, this is exactly what's been lacking in press coverage of the issue. If you're telling me that fully eliminating gas stoves in the U.S. (something that will not happen in our lifetimes and will come at great political and personal cost) is going to reduce U.S.-specific emissions by just 1%, I think I'm even more convinced that this regulation should not have been passed. What am I missing?
- justeleblanc 3y ago
  We can get rid of a whole percent in emissions by giving up nothing important, and you think it's not a regulation that the government should pass?! What should the threshold for a regulation to pass, in your opinion? Should it cut single-handedly emissions by 2% on its own? 5%? 10%? 50%?
  - iamdamian 3y ago
    Based on the information you've provided, I don't think we can get rid of a whole percent, since that would require the entire country to completely get rid of gas stoves and also for their new electric stoves to be powered by something that does not produce emissions. I know you'll disagree, but my take is that the upside (<1% savings over the course of, say, 30 years) is outweighed by the downside (lack of ability to cook or boil water during a power outage, far worse cooking experience).
    - argiopetech 3y ago
      Agreed that 1% of the United States' 28% of global CO2 emissions is negligible in the grand global scheme. Additionally, the energy cost of creating new stoves with significantly more complex internals (both due to the constant march of technology and the relative complexity of electric or induction cooktops versus gas) can't be overnighted.
  - baggy_trough 3y ago
    You think it’s nothing important. Others disagree, and get angry when they are forced to obey your preferences.
    - justeleblanc 3y ago
      And I get angry when selfish people refuse to do anything to lower their emissions and impact me and my family.
      - 3y ago
HWR_14 3y ago
I find a flaw with your argument. The question is not "are the major gas appliances the primary drivers for household emissions". That seems true and obvious. It is "does replacing them with electrical versions lower total emissions"? Meanwhile, you seem to be using different definitions of household emissions. Your first source about 95% seems to be talking about direct emissions, ignoring the impact of electricity generation. Your second source about the size of the problem (20%) seems to include electric production.
- rlg2161 3y ago
  Paragraph 2 of my response: > The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split (if we bring grid emissions to 0 but don’t exchange these natural gas devices, carbon intensity remains at half of what it is today). Therefore, we can conclude that these 4 appliances in residential properties account for 10% of US carbon footprint. To your first question - the answer is yes; replacing gas appliances with modern electric appliances is less carbon intensive, even if the electricity is produced by fossil fuel combustion. This will become increasingly true as the grid gets greener over time and the carbon intensity of electricity production continues to drop