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How quickly could heat resistant fish be reproduced through natural selection? Years? Fish breed fast right? Sharks have been around for millions of years with

by xwdv 3y ago

How quickly could heat resistant fish be reproduced through natural selection? Years? Fish breed fast right? Sharks have been around for millions of years with a lot of variance in ocean temperatures.

Juliate 3y ago
Over the periods fishes evolved, their habitat wasn’t under heavy attack/occupation, neither were their populations hunted at the current scale.
neom 3y ago
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200427125154.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200427125154.h...
Arnt 3y ago
Sharks are pelagic, which means that they live in the open ocean, they don't need to be near either any coast, the surface or the bottom. Pelagic fish can wander, with some restrictions. Species that need a coast are in less luck, for example. The next appropriate coast may be far away. The Great Barrier Reef can't just migrate to Antarctica, even if there is a suitable coastline down there, because it can't get there from where it is. There is no continuously habitable area from where it is now to the potential new habitat.
- Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
  Is there anything stopping it from migrating down to the southern coast of Australia?
  - tastyfreeze 3y ago
    As conditions change that is likely to happen. Corals are broadcast spawners. The larva will settle in a hospitable environment wherever that happens to be.
- Scarblac 3y ago
  > Sharks are pelagic, which means that they live in the open ocean, they don't need to be near either any coast, the surface or the bottom. Some sharks are. There are 400+ species and plenty of them live near coasts or the bottom.
  - Arnt 3y ago
    Oh right, in theory I knew that. Sorry. But have the non-pelagic shark species survived any climate changes that would force them to migrate across a large inhospitable area? Sharks have survived very long as a group, but it's not clear to me that most/all of the individual species that have existed still do.
redprince 3y ago
Maybe some fish will survive a rapid change in their ecosystem. I'd be worried, that most probably will die when their capacity to adapt is exceeded either directly or through breakdown of food chains. Though I'd be more worried about effects like seasonal oceanic dead zones increasing in size and persisting longer. I don't think too many fish will evolve into a species not requiring oxygen anytime soon.
myshpa 3y ago
Heat resistant and anaerobic ? Years? Why so long ? /s https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/ (natural speed of changes vs. anthropocene) https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-trajectory-of-the-Anthropocene-The-Great-Acceleration-Source-Steffen-et-al-2015_fig1_344401109 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-trajectory-of-the-An... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration The "hockey stick" is just starting. - Marine life: Warmer sea temperatures can lead to changes in the distribution and behavior of marine species, with some moving to cooler waters or changing their migration patterns. This can also affect the growth and reproduction rates of different marine organisms, which can have cascading effects on the food chain. - Coral reefs: Coral reefs are highly sensitive to changes in sea temperature, and prolonged exposure to temperatures above 21 degrees Celsius can cause coral bleaching, which can lead to their death. This can have significant impacts on the many species that depend on coral reefs for food and habitat. - Ocean currents: Changes in sea temperature can affect ocean currents, which can in turn impact weather patterns and climate. Warmer sea temperatures can lead to more frequent and severe weather events such as hurricanes and typhoons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturning_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturnin... - Sea level rise: As sea temperatures rise, the water expands, contributing to sea level rise. This can lead to flooding and erosion in coastal areas and impact the livelihoods of people who depend on these areas for fishing and tourism. - Decreased solubility: As sea temperature increases, the solubility of oxygen in seawater decreases. This means that warmer water holds less dissolved oxygen than cooler water. Therefore, as sea temperatures rise, the amount of oxygen available for marine life decreases. - Increased stratification: Warmer water is less dense than cooler water, so as the sea temperature rises, the water column becomes more stratified, with warmer water sitting on top of cooler water. This can prevent oxygen-rich surface water from mixing with deeper water, leading to the formation of oxygen-depleted zones. - Algae blooms: Warmer sea temperatures can promote the growth of certain types of algae, such as harmful algal blooms. These blooms can consume large amounts of oxygen when they decompose, leading to oxygen-depleted zones in the surrounding water. - Oxygen-depleted zones, also known as hypoxic or anoxic zones, can have significant impacts on marine ecosystems. When oxygen levels become too low, many marine organisms, such as fish, shellfish, and crabs, can suffocate and die. This can have cascading effects on the food chain and lead to the loss of commercially important species. Additionally, the decomposition of dead marine organisms in these zones can release harmful gases such as hydrogen sulfide, which can be toxic to marine life and humans.
chewbacha 3y ago
Fish aren’t likely the ones at risk. Corals, plankton, and other invertebrates that can’t move too far are going to be heavily selected against if they aren’t heat tolerant. My lab in college used to study heat shock and how it impacted evolution. Our theory was that a rapidly heating environment could expose latent genetic diversity that heat shock proteins masked through chaperoning the folding. We demonstrated this in fruit flies. We could see a rapid change if it’s prolonged enough.
- Hammershaft 3y ago
  Plankton concerns me because it's a primary source of the oxygen we breathe.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Also a major food source for plenty of species
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Isn't spawning of some fish species heavily impeded by high ocean temperature? They'd probably adjust to it over a few generations if we weren't overfishing them at the same time, but as-is I'm not too optimistic.
  - chewbacha 3y ago
    That’s a good point actually and I hadn’t considered the fish that have delicate spawning. Eggs and fry cannot travel far.
Mistletoe 3y ago
I think years is several magnitudes off for how fast evolution works. https://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/aug/lasting-evolutionary-change-takes-about-one-million-years https://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/aug/lasting-evol...
bwb 3y ago
its also the people made speed of this change... natural selection works over a really long time period, requiring it work in a x years not so much :)
Scarblac 3y ago
A problem is that because of the increased CO2 concentrations, ocean weather is becoming more acidic at the same time. That's a huge problem on its own for many species.

by xwdv 3y ago

Juliate 3y ago

Over the periods fishes evolved, their habitat wasn’t under heavy attack/occupation, neither were their populations hunted at the current scale.

neom 3y ago

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200427125154.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200427125154.h...

Arnt 3y ago

Sharks are pelagic, which means that they live in the open ocean, they don't need to be near either any coast, the surface or the bottom. Pelagic fish can wander, with some restrictions. Species that need a coast are in less luck, for example. The next appropriate coast may be far away. The Great Barrier Reef can't just migrate to Antarctica, even if there is a suitable coastline down there, because it can't get there from where it is. There is no continuously habitable area from where it is now to the potential new habitat.

Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
Is there anything stopping it from migrating down to the southern coast of Australia?
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  As conditions change that is likely to happen. Corals are broadcast spawners. The larva will settle in a hospitable environment wherever that happens to be.
Scarblac 3y ago
> Sharks are pelagic, which means that they live in the open ocean, they don't need to be near either any coast, the surface or the bottom. Some sharks are. There are 400+ species and plenty of them live near coasts or the bottom.
- Arnt 3y ago
  Oh right, in theory I knew that. Sorry. But have the non-pelagic shark species survived any climate changes that would force them to migrate across a large inhospitable area? Sharks have survived very long as a group, but it's not clear to me that most/all of the individual species that have existed still do.

redprince 3y ago

Maybe some fish will survive a rapid change in their ecosystem. I'd be worried, that most probably will die when their capacity to adapt is exceeded either directly or through breakdown of food chains. Though I'd be more worried about effects like seasonal oceanic dead zones increasing in size and persisting longer. I don't think too many fish will evolve into a species not requiring oxygen anytime soon.

myshpa 3y ago

Heat resistant and anaerobic ? Years? Why so long ? /s https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/ (natural speed of changes vs. anthropocene) https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-trajectory-of-the-Anthropocene-The-Great-Acceleration-Source-Steffen-et-al-2015_fig1_344401109 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-trajectory-of-the-An... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration The "hockey stick" is just starting. - Marine life: Warmer sea temperatures can lead to changes in the distribution and behavior of marine species, with some moving to cooler waters or changing their migration patterns. This can also affect the growth and reproduction rates of different marine organisms, which can have cascading effects on the food chain. - Coral reefs: Coral reefs are highly sensitive to changes in sea temperature, and prolonged exposure to temperatures above 21 degrees Celsius can cause coral bleaching, which can lead to their death. This can have significant impacts on the many species that depend on coral reefs for food and habitat. - Ocean currents: Changes in sea temperature can affect ocean currents, which can in turn impact weather patterns and climate. Warmer sea temperatures can lead to more frequent and severe weather events such as hurricanes and typhoons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturning_circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturnin... - Sea level rise: As sea temperatures rise, the water expands, contributing to sea level rise. This can lead to flooding and erosion in coastal areas and impact the livelihoods of people who depend on these areas for fishing and tourism. - Decreased solubility: As sea temperature increases, the solubility of oxygen in seawater decreases. This means that warmer water holds less dissolved oxygen than cooler water. Therefore, as sea temperatures rise, the amount of oxygen available for marine life decreases. - Increased stratification: Warmer water is less dense than cooler water, so as the sea temperature rises, the water column becomes more stratified, with warmer water sitting on top of cooler water. This can prevent oxygen-rich surface water from mixing with deeper water, leading to the formation of oxygen-depleted zones. - Algae blooms: Warmer sea temperatures can promote the growth of certain types of algae, such as harmful algal blooms. These blooms can consume large amounts of oxygen when they decompose, leading to oxygen-depleted zones in the surrounding water. - Oxygen-depleted zones, also known as hypoxic or anoxic zones, can have significant impacts on marine ecosystems. When oxygen levels become too low, many marine organisms, such as fish, shellfish, and crabs, can suffocate and die. This can have cascading effects on the food chain and lead to the loss of commercially important species. Additionally, the decomposition of dead marine organisms in these zones can release harmful gases such as hydrogen sulfide, which can be toxic to marine life and humans.

chewbacha 3y ago

Fish aren’t likely the ones at risk. Corals, plankton, and other invertebrates that can’t move too far are going to be heavily selected against if they aren’t heat tolerant. My lab in college used to study heat shock and how it impacted evolution. Our theory was that a rapidly heating environment could expose latent genetic diversity that heat shock proteins masked through chaperoning the folding. We demonstrated this in fruit flies. We could see a rapid change if it’s prolonged enough.

Hammershaft 3y ago
Plankton concerns me because it's a primary source of the oxygen we breathe.
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Also a major food source for plenty of species
moffkalast 3y ago
Isn't spawning of some fish species heavily impeded by high ocean temperature? They'd probably adjust to it over a few generations if we weren't overfishing them at the same time, but as-is I'm not too optimistic.
- chewbacha 3y ago
  That’s a good point actually and I hadn’t considered the fish that have delicate spawning. Eggs and fry cannot travel far.

Mistletoe 3y ago

I think years is several magnitudes off for how fast evolution works. https://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/aug/lasting-evolutionary-change-takes-about-one-million-years https://today.oregonstate.edu/archives/2011/aug/lasting-evol...

bwb 3y ago

its also the people made speed of this change... natural selection works over a really long time period, requiring it work in a x years not so much :)

Scarblac 3y ago

A problem is that because of the increased CO2 concentrations, ocean weather is becoming more acidic at the same time. That's a huge problem on its own for many species.