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I think Deno feels a fire under their ass. The JS ecosystem has not really embraced Deno in terms of tooling, libraries or frameworks and the serverless ecosyst

I think Deno feels a fire under their ass. The JS ecosystem has not really embraced Deno in terms of tooling, libraries or frameworks and the serverless ecosystem has not embraced Deno as a runtime (aws/gcp/azure functions), so they're iterating rapidly to see if they can get something to really stick. And then there's Bun. I love Deno for system scripting but the friction with the rest of the JS ecosystem has prevented me from adopting it further.

sph 4y ago
[flagged]
- osener 4y ago
  Disgraceful?! I'd much rather OSS authors have an additional SaaS offering to support their work and work on it full-time rather than get them to work nights and weekends for free while AWS collects the checks for deploying their work.
- xupybd 4y ago
  I like to get paid for my work. Most people do. There is nothing disgraceful about that. I don't see any difference between deno as a company and your SAAS bernard.app.
  - sph 4y ago
    My SaaS is not an open source project nor a language runtime. How would you feel if Go, Elixir or Rust (just to name a few) were run by a company that depends on their success, so try to push aggressively new features and mindshare, often with disastrous result? Are Go, Elixir or Rust developers working for free? There is a difference between getting paid to work on open source, and structuring an open source company as a VC-backed startup that needs to grow fast or die. I guess everyone has already forgotten about Docker, Inc.
    - Sytten 4y ago
      This is a bad analogy, it is more like if the Tokio runtime was built by a VC backed business which is really not that bad. Honestly the anti business sentiment on HN is just becoming annoying. Get shamed when not building OSS, get shamed if you take VC money, etc. People are supposed to be saints that work for free so you can then take that and build your own proprietary stuff? Seriously...
      - veidr 4y ago
        Precisely. So much of the negativity in this thread (and elsewhere) weirdly conflates Deno with a language. Deno is an open source runtime for TypeScript (and JavaScript and WASM). One that has been delightful, in my experience, for system scripting, build tooling, and CLI apps. Deno Deploy is a hosted runtime that is very similar, but not open source. The complaining in this thread reads to me like people complaining that the company that makes AWS Lambda also makes DynamoDB. This new Deno KV is a fantastic addition to both of their runtimes. Dead simple, no need to sign up for some other service, works out of the box in either case. But nobody is forcing you to use it. You don't have to opt out of it. If you don't like it, then you can go use all the other database layers that you could before this announcement.
    - GordonS 4y ago
      A bit of a tangent, but I looks at your link to Bernard. Aren't there a lot of broken link-checking services out there already? Curious to learn what your USP is, and/or your approach to competing in a saturated market.
      - sph 4y ago
        None that seem vaguely close to my vision. And one killer feature I would like to focus on (though it's on the roadmap for post-launch) is the ability to notify you if an URL of yours stops being accessible, i.e. you forgot, after a redesign, to set up a redirect from the old URL to the new, which is a nightmare for both users and your SEO. I've seen that happen countless times, and no service I've tested was able to monitor for that use case satisfactorily and/or at that price point. In other words, my goal is to create a service to uphold Berners-Lee's "cool URIs don't change" mantra. https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
- slashdev 4y ago
  I would rather they have money and a business plan. That way it’s more likely it will get the resources needed to develop it, build a community around it, and I won’t end up with a mothballed open source project that’s not maintained anymore. Nodejs is an open source alternative you can stick with, if you don’t like commercial products.
forty 4y ago
Their main issue IMO is that they are not really bringing anything major to the table in exchange for the very high cost of breaking compatibility with nodejs. If you are going to create a competing ecosystem it has to be somewhat revolutionary for the cost of investing/migrating to a whole new ecosystem to be worth it. I like Typescript quite well, but if I'm told I'm going to throw away my nodejs/ts code base and start from scratch, then they are many alternative with better (for many definitions of "better") langages to consider, which at least will actually be different from what I have just thrown away.
- oofta-boofta 4y ago
  > Their main issue IMO is that they are not really bringing anything major to the table in exchange for the very high cost of breaking compatibility with nodejs. This is why my money is on Bun, just like a safe bet in Carbon. Both are designed to be drop-in-capable in large codebases where the bean counters aren't going to budget a total rewrite that redelivers the same functionality.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    In regards to C++ evolution, Circle is a much better bet than something that is a basic AST interpreter.
jstummbillig 4y ago
Agreed. The way to fix that fire, however, is focusing on giving people the closest thing to a solution -- not the tools to build the closest thing to a solution. For deno that would be fresh (the framework). And the speed of development is just not there, compared to the competitors (but everything has trouble keeping up with next right now)
lloydatkinson 4y ago
Netlify edge workers use only Deno

sph 4y ago

[flagged]

osener 4y ago
Disgraceful?! I'd much rather OSS authors have an additional SaaS offering to support their work and work on it full-time rather than get them to work nights and weekends for free while AWS collects the checks for deploying their work.
xupybd 4y ago
I like to get paid for my work. Most people do. There is nothing disgraceful about that. I don't see any difference between deno as a company and your SAAS bernard.app.
- sph 4y ago
  My SaaS is not an open source project nor a language runtime. How would you feel if Go, Elixir or Rust (just to name a few) were run by a company that depends on their success, so try to push aggressively new features and mindshare, often with disastrous result? Are Go, Elixir or Rust developers working for free? There is a difference between getting paid to work on open source, and structuring an open source company as a VC-backed startup that needs to grow fast or die. I guess everyone has already forgotten about Docker, Inc.
  - Sytten 4y ago
    This is a bad analogy, it is more like if the Tokio runtime was built by a VC backed business which is really not that bad. Honestly the anti business sentiment on HN is just becoming annoying. Get shamed when not building OSS, get shamed if you take VC money, etc. People are supposed to be saints that work for free so you can then take that and build your own proprietary stuff? Seriously...
    - veidr 4y ago
      Precisely. So much of the negativity in this thread (and elsewhere) weirdly conflates Deno with a language. Deno is an open source runtime for TypeScript (and JavaScript and WASM). One that has been delightful, in my experience, for system scripting, build tooling, and CLI apps. Deno Deploy is a hosted runtime that is very similar, but not open source. The complaining in this thread reads to me like people complaining that the company that makes AWS Lambda also makes DynamoDB. This new Deno KV is a fantastic addition to both of their runtimes. Dead simple, no need to sign up for some other service, works out of the box in either case. But nobody is forcing you to use it. You don't have to opt out of it. If you don't like it, then you can go use all the other database layers that you could before this announcement.
  - GordonS 4y ago
    A bit of a tangent, but I looks at your link to Bernard. Aren't there a lot of broken link-checking services out there already? Curious to learn what your USP is, and/or your approach to competing in a saturated market.
    - sph 4y ago
      None that seem vaguely close to my vision. And one killer feature I would like to focus on (though it's on the roadmap for post-launch) is the ability to notify you if an URL of yours stops being accessible, i.e. you forgot, after a redesign, to set up a redirect from the old URL to the new, which is a nightmare for both users and your SEO. I've seen that happen countless times, and no service I've tested was able to monitor for that use case satisfactorily and/or at that price point. In other words, my goal is to create a service to uphold Berners-Lee's "cool URIs don't change" mantra. https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
slashdev 4y ago
I would rather they have money and a business plan. That way it’s more likely it will get the resources needed to develop it, build a community around it, and I won’t end up with a mothballed open source project that’s not maintained anymore. Nodejs is an open source alternative you can stick with, if you don’t like commercial products.

forty 4y ago

Their main issue IMO is that they are not really bringing anything major to the table in exchange for the very high cost of breaking compatibility with nodejs. If you are going to create a competing ecosystem it has to be somewhat revolutionary for the cost of investing/migrating to a whole new ecosystem to be worth it. I like Typescript quite well, but if I'm told I'm going to throw away my nodejs/ts code base and start from scratch, then they are many alternative with better (for many definitions of "better") langages to consider, which at least will actually be different from what I have just thrown away.

oofta-boofta 4y ago
> Their main issue IMO is that they are not really bringing anything major to the table in exchange for the very high cost of breaking compatibility with nodejs. This is why my money is on Bun, just like a safe bet in Carbon. Both are designed to be drop-in-capable in large codebases where the bean counters aren't going to budget a total rewrite that redelivers the same functionality.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  In regards to C++ evolution, Circle is a much better bet than something that is a basic AST interpreter.

jstummbillig 4y ago

Agreed. The way to fix that fire, however, is focusing on giving people the closest thing to a solution -- not the tools to build the closest thing to a solution. For deno that would be fresh (the framework). And the speed of development is just not there, compared to the competitors (but everything has trouble keeping up with next right now)

lloydatkinson 4y ago

Netlify edge workers use only Deno