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> Jobs are better than no jobs, across the board. What about slavery? What if there is a spectrum between chattel slavery and owning the means of production? H

> Jobs are better than no jobs, across the board. What about slavery? What if there is a spectrum between chattel slavery and owning the means of production? How would you determine where "job" exists on that spectrum? Slaves still get fed and housed. If the only thing that a job offers is food and housing, how different is that from slavery? How free is a person who can only afford to house and feed themselves?

Claudus 4y ago
More free than a person who can not afford to house themselves, and less free than a person who cannot feed themselves (because they are dead).
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Alupis 4y ago
Few, if any slaves felt purpose, belonging, responsibility, and personal discipline - all generally positive feelings that are associated with working on something for a reason.
- digging 4y ago
  But jobs don't offer any of those things. Good jobs might. Ideally, at no cost to your health or relationships, but no guarantee.
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- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  > purpose, belonging, responsibility, and personal discipline - all generally positive feelings that are associated with working on something for a reason If you think this statement reflects in any way the reality of the majority of the global workforce then you have no idea what work is like for most people.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    This has a slightly disparaging tone to it. Just because someone does a job you may not enjoy, does not mean it's not a good job or that it does not fulfill them personally. All jobs provide purpose, even if that purpose is simply to feed oneself while looking for a better opportunity. Humans need to work on something, anything. Idle minds rot, figuratively, and having no reason to wake up each day is hugely depressing.
    - v-erne 4y ago
      >> All jobs provide purpose As some dude said: that's just, like, your opinion. You should get out more and meet people from different venues of life. Try telling this banality to my brother who used to be reposesion man and see what will happen. He has to go to therapy regullarly to get nightmares out of his head after years of literally taking money and stuff from crying people. No, some jobs are economically viable and current system likes them - its really convenient for everyones conscience to outsource debt handling to some specialized thug like characters. But saing that all people can find purpose in them - that's too much.
      - harvey9 4y ago
        So his purpose in doing that job was, it appears, to keep himself fed and housed until he could find something better.
        msrenee 4y ago
        Sounds like it. Very fulfilling.
gameman144 4y ago
I think one big difference is that a job is something you have a choice in. A person who can only afford to house and feed themselves isn't free to have no job, but they are free to choose which job they do. In such cases, the parent's point of "more jobs are better" definitely applies, as it gives workers a lot more choice (even disregarding the bargaining power).
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  Ok, you are free to choose between shit unhealthy job in factory A and shit unhealthy job in factory B. Choice is an illusion, you still have no freedom. Say you also had the choice to pick a square of land, build a hut and grow your food on it, now that would at least grant you some degree of freedom, but since it isn't possible you are forced to work for one of these factories or starve. Relocate? Where? With which money? Just to become homeless somewhere else? I don't know how else to call this if not some form of slavery. You are not threatened with violence, but try to strike and see what happens.
  - t0suj4 4y ago
    It is an illusion if you cannot create your job for yourself. Be it polishing pebbles or selling hard boiled eggs.
    - penneallagricia 4y ago
      The real illusion is that everyone has the opportunity to create a job for themselves. Who's going to work in the factories to produce the goods we all need then? It is clear that this system is based on the exploitation of a large workforce that sits at the bottom of the social pyramid. Our society would literally collapse if everyone was able to escape wage slavery at once.
      - than3 4y ago
        The illusion is equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. > It is clear that this system... Yes, and that is where Chat-GPT and the newer generation AI's come in. Not on the workers side, but still escaping wage slavery all the same.
PicassoCTs 4y ago
That was the precondition for the two worldwars in germany. Lots of "farmhands" with food and shelter, nothing to be proud of, no future, no family, so they got there whole pride from nationalism and race, and the farm owners talked themselves into believing they were basically nobility. Then the whole situation spiraled out of hand, because everything was better then socialism. Turns out in the end, it was not. Blockades used against "rival" empires made drastic measures rationalizable, like for example mass murdering populations to provide for your own population, that could not be fed without oil imports aka fertilizers. This whole madness we today remember, started out rational. I thought we already went down this road and remembered were it leads.
- than3 4y ago
  > I thought we already went down this road and remembered where it leads. This memory is written down on dead leaves and the majority of people don't read anymore, and aren't educated about cyclical things like this because of stage 7.

Claudus 4y ago

More free than a person who can not afford to house themselves, and less free than a person who cannot feed themselves (because they are dead).

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Alupis 4y ago

Few, if any slaves felt purpose, belonging, responsibility, and personal discipline - all generally positive feelings that are associated with working on something for a reason.

digging 4y ago
But jobs don't offer any of those things. Good jobs might. Ideally, at no cost to your health or relationships, but no guarantee.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
> purpose, belonging, responsibility, and personal discipline - all generally positive feelings that are associated with working on something for a reason If you think this statement reflects in any way the reality of the majority of the global workforce then you have no idea what work is like for most people.
- Alupis 4y ago
  This has a slightly disparaging tone to it. Just because someone does a job you may not enjoy, does not mean it's not a good job or that it does not fulfill them personally. All jobs provide purpose, even if that purpose is simply to feed oneself while looking for a better opportunity. Humans need to work on something, anything. Idle minds rot, figuratively, and having no reason to wake up each day is hugely depressing.
  - v-erne 4y ago
    >> All jobs provide purpose As some dude said: that's just, like, your opinion. You should get out more and meet people from different venues of life. Try telling this banality to my brother who used to be reposesion man and see what will happen. He has to go to therapy regullarly to get nightmares out of his head after years of literally taking money and stuff from crying people. No, some jobs are economically viable and current system likes them - its really convenient for everyones conscience to outsource debt handling to some specialized thug like characters. But saing that all people can find purpose in them - that's too much.
    - harvey9 4y ago
      So his purpose in doing that job was, it appears, to keep himself fed and housed until he could find something better.
      - msrenee 4y ago
        Sounds like it. Very fulfilling.

gameman144 4y ago

I think one big difference is that a job is something you have a choice in. A person who can only afford to house and feed themselves isn't free to have no job, but they are free to choose which job they do. In such cases, the parent's point of "more jobs are better" definitely applies, as it gives workers a lot more choice (even disregarding the bargaining power).

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
Ok, you are free to choose between shit unhealthy job in factory A and shit unhealthy job in factory B. Choice is an illusion, you still have no freedom. Say you also had the choice to pick a square of land, build a hut and grow your food on it, now that would at least grant you some degree of freedom, but since it isn't possible you are forced to work for one of these factories or starve. Relocate? Where? With which money? Just to become homeless somewhere else? I don't know how else to call this if not some form of slavery. You are not threatened with violence, but try to strike and see what happens.
- t0suj4 4y ago
  It is an illusion if you cannot create your job for yourself. Be it polishing pebbles or selling hard boiled eggs.
  - penneallagricia 4y ago
    The real illusion is that everyone has the opportunity to create a job for themselves. Who's going to work in the factories to produce the goods we all need then? It is clear that this system is based on the exploitation of a large workforce that sits at the bottom of the social pyramid. Our society would literally collapse if everyone was able to escape wage slavery at once.
    - than3 4y ago
      The illusion is equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome. > It is clear that this system... Yes, and that is where Chat-GPT and the newer generation AI's come in. Not on the workers side, but still escaping wage slavery all the same.

PicassoCTs 4y ago

That was the precondition for the two worldwars in germany. Lots of "farmhands" with food and shelter, nothing to be proud of, no future, no family, so they got there whole pride from nationalism and race, and the farm owners talked themselves into believing they were basically nobility. Then the whole situation spiraled out of hand, because everything was better then socialism. Turns out in the end, it was not. Blockades used against "rival" empires made drastic measures rationalizable, like for example mass murdering populations to provide for your own population, that could not be fed without oil imports aka fertilizers. This whole madness we today remember, started out rational. I thought we already went down this road and remembered were it leads.

than3 4y ago
> I thought we already went down this road and remembered where it leads. This memory is written down on dead leaves and the majority of people don't read anymore, and aren't educated about cyclical things like this because of stage 7.