4 ms·

It's patently evident that the current social and political instability in the West is caused by ideological subversion carried out by their political enemies.

by imiric 4y ago

It's patently evident that the current social and political instability in the West is caused by ideological subversion carried out by their political enemies. The internet and social media have provided the perfect weapon to deliver disinformation and propaganda to manipulate the masses, and create a state of internal conflict and confusion. Modern warfare is no longer carried out by soldiers and artillery, but by words, videos and troll farms. Why waste resources investing in physical offense, when you can undermine your enemy via ideological means, using the same tools they built for you, and watch their political and social systems crumble from within? If nothing else, it makes the eventual physical offensive much cheaper and more effective. This has been known for decades[1], yet the West has done little to stop it from happening. They engage in the same psyops, but information in the countries of their enemies is much more strictly controlled, so it has much less of an impact. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q

UberFly 4y ago
I was going to post this exact interview. What's crazy is that the tools to do this are now so much more powerful and far-reaching. Worth a watch.
8note 4y ago
I think without the adversarial subversion, the states would be in just as bad of a place. It would be less clear in policies implemented, but the root cause is a lack of engagement in politics and use of the tools from modernity and the enlightenment. People aren't sold on debate and discussion, and aren't aligned on goals, and don't have a way to align on goals
- tcbawo 4y ago
  The middle of both parties are getting older and older. Newly elected politicians tend to be populistic culture warriors. Consequently, we’re not able to elect anyone that gets anything done. Gone are the days of electing the most serious and responsible public servants. We’re not able to replace aging incumbent politicians with grownups. Or so it seems.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
> The internet and social media have provided the perfect weapon to deliver disinformation and propaganda to manipulate the masses, and create a state of internal conflict and confusion. Yes, unlike the good old day when legacy media (tv/newspapers/radio) served the people and told them the truth, without trying to manipulate the masses.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Ideological subversion has been happening since the Frankfurt school fled to the US: “critical theories” festered in academia for generations until they could permeate and rot society. Social media, however, accelerated that by allowing individual manipulation of vulnerable young people with that messaging by both foreign adversaries and subverted citizens. Boosted by things like economic warfare, where China funds these radical groups and promotes their agendas.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    That wouldn't have happened if the legacy media and local state actors didn't discredit themselves with blatant lies, open bias and non-stop propaganda. Foreign adversaries have gained some meaningful ground only because local sources of information stopped even pretending to be an objective source of information.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      I don’t think that’s true. Eg, as a recent example, we saw major media institutions subverted to run propaganda cover for an organized terrorist campaign which saw over a billion dollars in arson attacks across dozens of major cities — and dozens of murders, including Antonio Mays Jr and David Dorn. I see the role of social media as accelerating the subversion of traditional institutions, eg media or academia.
  - Timon3 4y ago
    Could you explicitly explain your critique of "the Frankfurt school" and "critical theories"?
FpUser 4y ago
>"It's patently evident that the current social and political instability in the West is caused by ideological subversion carried out by their political enemies." I call utter BS on this. You are basically shooting a messenger here (whether said messenger is a baddy is not really relevant). If you had healthy society where fucking lefties and asshole righties were not at each other throats and where poverty, ever progressing lack of education and other social issues were not so rampant political enemies would have no grass to feed on.
- kranke155 4y ago
  Those two things are directly related. The post-Cambridge Analytica cognitive warfare has two goals: - To elect your candidate - To prevent any meaningful discussion of political goals and to focus the conversation on whatever wedge issues are needed to win
alariccole 4y ago
Your point is true, but this “interview” is mostly nonsensical fearmongering with no substance.
- imiric 4y ago
  There's some hyperbole in what Bezmenov claims will be the consequences, but psyops and information warfare are very much real, and have been in use for decades. If he defected from the USSR and worked as a propagandist, he would be very familiar with what these tools are capable of. And if you take a look at the current state of many Western countries, it aligns well with the effects of psyops. Whether it was done by internal or external forces doesn't matter much, but it would be naive to think enemies of the West aren't engaging in it, just as the West is[1]. [1]: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/19/us-government-reviewing-psyops-after-social-media-/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/19/us-governme...
  - than3 4y ago
    There's a very interesting read on the USMC University website that covers political warfare (which this would arguably fall into). Its freely available.
than3 4y ago
> It is patently evident that ... This is a very easy intelligence trap to fall into, but it neglects internal bad actors that are doing the same things for profit. That interview is structured to set you up into a subtle us vs. them mentality. If you look at what he says and how you feel when you find out (if you agree, which itself is a subtle lever of influence with consistency [Cialdini]), its hard to argue that he isn't doing exactly what he says they do (creating a demoralized state). You always have to remember the source, and he is not a good source for this. There are much better sources. We value freedom of speech, because proper communication enables debate which allows us to come to a fuller understanding of certain issues than in the absence of this. This understanding often allows us to save lives, whereas those mistakes that would never normally be addressed would result in deaths in a system where this doesn't take place. That being said, you can never have a debate where the number of real people is less than fake people, and they have some motive to amplify or de-amplify what's being said which is ineffable ahead of time. Where things have gone wrong is in treating corporations as dual entities. When it suits them they are people, when it suits them best they are a corporation, and in some industries when it suits them they act as arms of government without any of the mandates from the constitution, and are immune from legal repercussions.

by imiric 4y ago

UberFly 4y ago

I was going to post this exact interview. What's crazy is that the tools to do this are now so much more powerful and far-reaching. Worth a watch.

8note 4y ago

I think without the adversarial subversion, the states would be in just as bad of a place. It would be less clear in policies implemented, but the root cause is a lack of engagement in politics and use of the tools from modernity and the enlightenment. People aren't sold on debate and discussion, and aren't aligned on goals, and don't have a way to align on goals

tcbawo 4y ago
The middle of both parties are getting older and older. Newly elected politicians tend to be populistic culture warriors. Consequently, we’re not able to elect anyone that gets anything done. Gone are the days of electing the most serious and responsible public servants. We’re not able to replace aging incumbent politicians with grownups. Or so it seems.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

> The internet and social media have provided the perfect weapon to deliver disinformation and propaganda to manipulate the masses, and create a state of internal conflict and confusion. Yes, unlike the good old day when legacy media (tv/newspapers/radio) served the people and told them the truth, without trying to manipulate the masses.

zmgsabst 4y ago
Ideological subversion has been happening since the Frankfurt school fled to the US: “critical theories” festered in academia for generations until they could permeate and rot society. Social media, however, accelerated that by allowing individual manipulation of vulnerable young people with that messaging by both foreign adversaries and subverted citizens. Boosted by things like economic warfare, where China funds these radical groups and promotes their agendas.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  That wouldn't have happened if the legacy media and local state actors didn't discredit themselves with blatant lies, open bias and non-stop propaganda. Foreign adversaries have gained some meaningful ground only because local sources of information stopped even pretending to be an objective source of information.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I don’t think that’s true. Eg, as a recent example, we saw major media institutions subverted to run propaganda cover for an organized terrorist campaign which saw over a billion dollars in arson attacks across dozens of major cities — and dozens of murders, including Antonio Mays Jr and David Dorn. I see the role of social media as accelerating the subversion of traditional institutions, eg media or academia.
- Timon3 4y ago
  Could you explicitly explain your critique of "the Frankfurt school" and "critical theories"?

FpUser 4y ago

>"It's patently evident that the current social and political instability in the West is caused by ideological subversion carried out by their political enemies." I call utter BS on this. You are basically shooting a messenger here (whether said messenger is a baddy is not really relevant). If you had healthy society where fucking lefties and asshole righties were not at each other throats and where poverty, ever progressing lack of education and other social issues were not so rampant political enemies would have no grass to feed on.

kranke155 4y ago
Those two things are directly related. The post-Cambridge Analytica cognitive warfare has two goals: - To elect your candidate - To prevent any meaningful discussion of political goals and to focus the conversation on whatever wedge issues are needed to win

alariccole 4y ago

Your point is true, but this “interview” is mostly nonsensical fearmongering with no substance.

imiric 4y ago
There's some hyperbole in what Bezmenov claims will be the consequences, but psyops and information warfare are very much real, and have been in use for decades. If he defected from the USSR and worked as a propagandist, he would be very familiar with what these tools are capable of. And if you take a look at the current state of many Western countries, it aligns well with the effects of psyops. Whether it was done by internal or external forces doesn't matter much, but it would be naive to think enemies of the West aren't engaging in it, just as the West is[1]. [1]: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/19/us-government-reviewing-psyops-after-social-media-/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/19/us-governme...
- than3 4y ago
  There's a very interesting read on the USMC University website that covers political warfare (which this would arguably fall into). Its freely available.

than3 4y ago

> It is patently evident that ... This is a very easy intelligence trap to fall into, but it neglects internal bad actors that are doing the same things for profit. That interview is structured to set you up into a subtle us vs. them mentality. If you look at what he says and how you feel when you find out (if you agree, which itself is a subtle lever of influence with consistency [Cialdini]), its hard to argue that he isn't doing exactly what he says they do (creating a demoralized state). You always have to remember the source, and he is not a good source for this. There are much better sources. We value freedom of speech, because proper communication enables debate which allows us to come to a fuller understanding of certain issues than in the absence of this. This understanding often allows us to save lives, whereas those mistakes that would never normally be addressed would result in deaths in a system where this doesn't take place. That being said, you can never have a debate where the number of real people is less than fake people, and they have some motive to amplify or de-amplify what's being said which is ineffable ahead of time. Where things have gone wrong is in treating corporations as dual entities. When it suits them they are people, when it suits them best they are a corporation, and in some industries when it suits them they act as arms of government without any of the mandates from the constitution, and are immune from legal repercussions.