4 ms·

The easiest way to subvert democracy is by (1) creating political parties, then (2) claim that its party members represent the people, while (3) they actuall

The easiest way to subvert democracy is by (1) creating political parties, then (2) claim that its party members represent the people, while (3) they actually represent its political party, and therefore, of course, prioritize its interests. In my country, every major oligarchs have its own / is a member of a political party. So our "Council of People's Representatives" actually works as "Council of Party's Representative" - and therefore work very diligently to fight for the interests of our oligarchs. And yet no one is upset, not even our "democracy activists" - because they're already conditioned / believe that, political parties are a requirement for a proper democracy. Nope, they're not - and they're actually the way to subvert democracy, and enabled the oligarchs to create massive profits AND control the people at the same time.

int_19h 3y ago
Parties are an inevitable feature of any representative democracy for the simple reason that MPs who pool their votes will consistently beat those who do not. Even council democracy - where the delegates vote according to instructions of their electorate and can be instantly recalled - is not immune to this.
- digging 3y ago
  It's a pretty simple equation if you abstract voting into a competition. One can think of political parties as miniature states themselves. In a world of individuals trying to survive - the ones who survive will not remain individuals. They will form alliances and have power over those who are alone. A small state has little power, but a stateless individual has orders of magnitude less, roundable to zero. Likewise an independent member of a voting body will control the discussion among large parties. Parties could only be avoided by explicitly outlawing them - and not just by name, but by proscribing specific behaviors which could create de facto parties. Sounds incredibly difficult and would be amazing to watch attempted.
- than3 3y ago
  Parties are the formation of demagogues, and we all know how that worked out for Rome.
firstlink 3y ago
Indeed I agree friend, the creation of the Republican party was the worst thing that ever happened to the US, and only the creation of the Democratic party kept the US from falling into complete fascism, at least for a time.
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  The Democratic Party was created in 1828 and Republican in 1854. They have ideologically shifted over time.
jruohonen 3y ago
I read the Narratively's seven stories, which were certainly an interesting read, but I think they simplified things a lot. To begin with, I am not sure how well we can draw from the Cold War era lessons to analyze the present day. Nor am I entirely sure how successful these information operations were even back then. Regarding Europe, I think you are on the right track about the role of political parties in democratic backsliding. While heavy disinformation and propaganda (both domestic and foreign) are certainly involved, there are all sorts of other dynamics involved. Oftentimes, things really start to get awry when a dominant party succeeds in capturing state institutions (including the judiciary) and the media sector. It is also noteworthy that such capturing may occur both through "pure" political actors and corporate powers, the latter often in the form of corrupted oligarchic structures, as you pointed out. Also recessions and economic hardship have played significant roles, as they have always done. People's apathy and disengagement are also a factor. In Europe we also have the further issue of backsliding spilling to the supranational level. That said, I disagree with your conclusion: even with the dangers, political parties are clearly necessary. As for the Narratively's focus on "fake news", I think a central question is in which stage of the backsliding these play a role. A hypothesis would be that these are particularly important early on. Later on, the entity that has succeeded in capturing can use the fire-hose strategy at its will.

int_19h 3y ago

Parties are an inevitable feature of any representative democracy for the simple reason that MPs who pool their votes will consistently beat those who do not. Even council democracy - where the delegates vote according to instructions of their electorate and can be instantly recalled - is not immune to this.

digging 3y ago
It's a pretty simple equation if you abstract voting into a competition. One can think of political parties as miniature states themselves. In a world of individuals trying to survive - the ones who survive will not remain individuals. They will form alliances and have power over those who are alone. A small state has little power, but a stateless individual has orders of magnitude less, roundable to zero. Likewise an independent member of a voting body will control the discussion among large parties. Parties could only be avoided by explicitly outlawing them - and not just by name, but by proscribing specific behaviors which could create de facto parties. Sounds incredibly difficult and would be amazing to watch attempted.
than3 3y ago
Parties are the formation of demagogues, and we all know how that worked out for Rome.

firstlink 3y ago

Indeed I agree friend, the creation of the Republican party was the worst thing that ever happened to the US, and only the creation of the Democratic party kept the US from falling into complete fascism, at least for a time.

Pigalowda 3y ago
The Democratic Party was created in 1828 and Republican in 1854. They have ideologically shifted over time.

jruohonen 3y ago

I read the Narratively's seven stories, which were certainly an interesting read, but I think they simplified things a lot. To begin with, I am not sure how well we can draw from the Cold War era lessons to analyze the present day. Nor am I entirely sure how successful these information operations were even back then. Regarding Europe, I think you are on the right track about the role of political parties in democratic backsliding. While heavy disinformation and propaganda (both domestic and foreign) are certainly involved, there are all sorts of other dynamics involved. Oftentimes, things really start to get awry when a dominant party succeeds in capturing state institutions (including the judiciary) and the media sector. It is also noteworthy that such capturing may occur both through "pure" political actors and corporate powers, the latter often in the form of corrupted oligarchic structures, as you pointed out. Also recessions and economic hardship have played significant roles, as they have always done. People's apathy and disengagement are also a factor. In Europe we also have the further issue of backsliding spilling to the supranational level. That said, I disagree with your conclusion: even with the dangers, political parties are clearly necessary. As for the Narratively's focus on "fake news", I think a central question is in which stage of the backsliding these play a role. A hypothesis would be that these are particularly important early on. Later on, the entity that has succeeded in capturing can use the fire-hose strategy at its will.