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The joy and freedom of harmlessly upsetting social norms
- jdmtheNth 3y agoWhat would Kant say about this?
- coldtea 3y agoKant's ethics are useless abstractions.
- uvnq 3y agoJust my guess but he probably would not have said that
- jdmtheNth 3y agoSpoken like a person incapable of self-regulation that needs external rules to function.
- coldtea 3y agoYeah, whereas your ad hominem non-argument shows a fully self-controlled character.
- Takennickname 3y agoSo someone who needs social norms.
- rayiner 3y ago> We’re not actually bound to social norms. We don’t need permission. We don’t need to please everyone. Social norms enforce behaviors that are necessary and desirable, but which would be unnecessarily punitive. For example, many societies have social norms that make getting married and having children social obligation. In many cultures, such as in Northern Europe, people are discovering that they are "not actually bound to social norms." Those cultures are universally in decline, and find themselves having to import workers and taxpayers from cultures that believe deeply in social norms (in Europe, Muslims). In societies that don't have modern technology and a surplus of wealth, upsetting social norms is anything but "harmless." The U.S. is currently in the midst of a huge STD epidemic: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/p0412-STD-Increase.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/p0412-STD-Increase.h.... And that's with modern technology and medicines. Imagine what things like during most of human history, when social norms against promiscuous sexual activity developed. Norms and taboos are a way to make people do good things and make them avoid bad behaviors.
- yvan-eht-nioj 3y agoIf being bound by tight social norms is the key to bringing birth rates above replacement level, then Japan’s population should be skyrocketing. The factors behind population decline are multifaceted, complex and vary from country to country. Both Russia and China are also in decline, and cannot be accused of being bastions of promiscuous, individualistic Western liberalism.
- rayiner 3y agoCultures of course vary in the particular norms they enforce. Many East Asian countries don’t have strong social norms in favor of procreation despite otherwise being strongly norm oriented. But of course a society that isn’t strongly norm oriented loses the ability to enforce that norm as well as other socially desirable behaviors. COVID is another example. The breakdown of norm-oriented behavior has been especially acute where the counter-culture of the 1970s collided with deindustrialization. The fallout was mitigated in certain blue areas by high levels of education. But I’m much of the country it ended up destroying the framework of norms that helped mediocre and not especially educated people make good decisions.
- yvan-eht-nioj 3y agoWho gets to decide what a socially desirable norm is? And what happens to those who don't comply?
- rayiner 3y agoSociety does, through consensus. Compliance is enforced through various expressions of disapproval, such as shaming. But focusing on the non-compliant people misses the point. The important thing is, what’s the benefit to everyone else-especially those who might make bad decisions absent the norms.
- yvan-eht-nioj 3y agoBut don’t social norms change over time? It was once normal to burn witches and keep slaves. Does that mean witch-burning was a good decision because it carried the weight of social consensus?
- mr_woozy 3y ago[dead]