8 ms·

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's r

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for a while.) I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.

orra 4y ago
> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  Well you could open a window.
  - galleywest200 4y ago
    In the middle of the night while you are asleep?
    - xboxnolifes 4y ago
      Why is your stove on while you sleep?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        It's probably connected to the internet, downloading critical updates to the burner software and ads to display while you're cooking.
  - orra 4y ago
    Sure, but my point is to remember to do that. Extractor fans are for more than extracting the smell of onions or fish.
- earthling8118 4y ago
  It's very bold of you to assume that my kitchen has ventilation at all. There's an electric extractor fan that just blows the air back in your face. I've seen other people's place where they don't even have that charade. I'd love to have a real setup. Unfortunately I've not been given that option and it is the same for many others.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  I don't know how the codes are where you live, but in EU the norms are for natural ventilation in kitchens where gas stoves are used.
SigmundA 4y ago
Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
- ou8_1_2 4y ago
  All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
  - rcme 4y ago
    I run my washer and dryer on a single 15 amp circuit. Heat pump dryers are very efficient.
  - radicaldreamer 4y ago
    There are some induction stove startups that are using batteries to not only not require 240v hookups but perform even better than a standard induction stove... the idea is that with cheap battery technology you can take advantage of the fact that not everything in your house will be running and charging at the same time.
  - greenthrow 4y ago
    The 80% rule is for running circuits and for breakers. It has nothing to do with actual load capacity. I.e. with 200A service you can have well beyond 200A nominal worth of breakers in your box (250A), but when all those things are running it should still use 200A or less if the 80% rule was followed.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    I did not make the list, I was replying to the list given. None of those devices pull the rated amount continuous except may the car charger which can be adjusted for less draw / longer charge time if needed. Simply scheduling car charing for overnight would eliminate any issue, even so there is plenty of headroom on a typical residential system.
gladiatr72 4y ago
No matches?
hedora 4y ago
I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transformer upgrades are required utility-side. There should be a ~ $250 per day fine, payable in cash to the homeowner once the SLA is exceeded. That’s roughly 2x normal homeowner costs due to delay of construction approvals (and therefore financing / alternative housing costs for those days) and using gas generators to power the site.
- danans 4y ago
  > (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.
  - nuancebydefault 4y ago
    It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being pedantic?
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.
      - 4y ago
Waterluvian 4y ago
> … getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. This wasn’t on my radar as being a thing. What type of service is typical out there? Where I am, 200A is fairly normal and I haven’t really perceived of the concept of not having enough electricity to run a family as a thing. Do people trip the main breaker more than “almost never” out there?
nostrademons 4y ago
(Heat pump) Hot water heaters and washing machines are not major power draws. Some rough figures on power consumption of typical appliances, from most to least: Continuous-flow electric water heater: 20 kW Heat pump or central air, big home: 12-15 kW EV charger: 7 kW Electric tanked water heater or hybrid water heater in electric mode: 7.2 kW Clothes dryer with heating element on: 5 kW Heat pump or central air, small home: 3-4 kW Electric oven: 3-5 kW Induction range: 1.8 kW Instapot: ~1.5 kW Toaster oven: 1-1.5 kW Electric kettle: 1 kW Microwave: 1.2 kW Dishwasher: ~500-1000 W Heat pump water heater: ~600W Washing machine: 500 W Vacuum cleaner: 200-300 W Home server or desktop: 100-200 W Box fan or air purifier: 100 W Laptop on fast charge: 65W Laptop on slow charge: 30W LED light bulb: 12-15W Cell phone charger: 6W For reference, 200A electrical service can supply up to 24 kW of power, and even 120A service in older houses is good for about 14.4 kW. Individually coordinating appliance loads or including a battery with each appliance seems like an inefficient, expensive and unnecessary extra step. Basically, all you need to do is a.) charge your EVs at night when nothing else is running b.) don't use electric water heaters unless they're heat pumps and c.) insulate your home if you're using heat pump HVAC. All of which you should be doing anyway. The kitchen appliances are easily manageable if the EV and HVAC are not running at the same time, and everything else is rounding error. There might be some benefit to grid-coordinating EV charging and heat pump HVAC operation, particularly since these are the cases where naive loads all hit the grid at the same time, and they already come with batteries included (literal ones for EVs, thermal batteries for HVAC). For smaller appliances it's totally unnecessary though.

orra 4y ago

> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.

im3w1l 4y ago
Well you could open a window.
- galleywest200 4y ago
  In the middle of the night while you are asleep?
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    Why is your stove on while you sleep?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      It's probably connected to the internet, downloading critical updates to the burner software and ads to display while you're cooking.
- orra 4y ago
  Sure, but my point is to remember to do that. Extractor fans are for more than extracting the smell of onions or fish.
earthling8118 4y ago
It's very bold of you to assume that my kitchen has ventilation at all. There's an electric extractor fan that just blows the air back in your face. I've seen other people's place where they don't even have that charade. I'd love to have a real setup. Unfortunately I've not been given that option and it is the same for many others.
jaclaz 4y ago
I don't know how the codes are where you live, but in EU the norms are for natural ventilation in kitchens where gas stoves are used.

SigmundA 4y ago

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

ou8_1_2 4y ago
All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
- rcme 4y ago
  I run my washer and dryer on a single 15 amp circuit. Heat pump dryers are very efficient.
- radicaldreamer 4y ago
  There are some induction stove startups that are using batteries to not only not require 240v hookups but perform even better than a standard induction stove... the idea is that with cheap battery technology you can take advantage of the fact that not everything in your house will be running and charging at the same time.
- greenthrow 4y ago
  The 80% rule is for running circuits and for breakers. It has nothing to do with actual load capacity. I.e. with 200A service you can have well beyond 200A nominal worth of breakers in your box (250A), but when all those things are running it should still use 200A or less if the 80% rule was followed.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  I did not make the list, I was replying to the list given. None of those devices pull the rated amount continuous except may the car charger which can be adjusted for less draw / longer charge time if needed. Simply scheduling car charing for overnight would eliminate any issue, even so there is plenty of headroom on a typical residential system.

gladiatr72 4y ago

No matches?

hedora 4y ago

I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transformer upgrades are required utility-side. There should be a ~ $250 per day fine, payable in cash to the homeowner once the SLA is exceeded. That’s roughly 2x normal homeowner costs due to delay of construction approvals (and therefore financing / alternative housing costs for those days) and using gas generators to power the site.

danans 4y ago
> (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.
- nuancebydefault 4y ago
  It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being pedantic?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.
    - 4y ago

Waterluvian 4y ago

> … getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. This wasn’t on my radar as being a thing. What type of service is typical out there? Where I am, 200A is fairly normal and I haven’t really perceived of the concept of not having enough electricity to run a family as a thing. Do people trip the main breaker more than “almost never” out there?

nostrademons 4y ago

(Heat pump) Hot water heaters and washing machines are not major power draws. Some rough figures on power consumption of typical appliances, from most to least: Continuous-flow electric water heater: 20 kW Heat pump or central air, big home: 12-15 kW EV charger: 7 kW Electric tanked water heater or hybrid water heater in electric mode: 7.2 kW Clothes dryer with heating element on: 5 kW Heat pump or central air, small home: 3-4 kW Electric oven: 3-5 kW Induction range: 1.8 kW Instapot: ~1.5 kW Toaster oven: 1-1.5 kW Electric kettle: 1 kW Microwave: 1.2 kW Dishwasher: ~500-1000 W Heat pump water heater: ~600W Washing machine: 500 W Vacuum cleaner: 200-300 W Home server or desktop: 100-200 W Box fan or air purifier: 100 W Laptop on fast charge: 65W Laptop on slow charge: 30W LED light bulb: 12-15W Cell phone charger: 6W For reference, 200A electrical service can supply up to 24 kW of power, and even 120A service in older houses is good for about 14.4 kW. Individually coordinating appliance loads or including a battery with each appliance seems like an inefficient, expensive and unnecessary extra step. Basically, all you need to do is a.) charge your EVs at night when nothing else is running b.) don't use electric water heaters unless they're heat pumps and c.) insulate your home if you're using heat pump HVAC. All of which you should be doing anyway. The kitchen appliances are easily manageable if the EV and HVAC are not running at the same time, and everything else is rounding error. There might be some benefit to grid-coordinating EV charging and heat pump HVAC operation, particularly since these are the cases where naive loads all hit the grid at the same time, and they already come with batteries included (literal ones for EVs, thermal batteries for HVAC). For smaller appliances it's totally unnecessary though.