4 ms·

Instead of better educating our population, the low-tax / anti-intellectual / authoritarian-reactionaries have convinced the population that they don't need edu

Instead of better educating our population, the low-tax / anti-intellectual / authoritarian-reactionaries have convinced the population that they don't need education. With education, they might aim for socio-economic advancement (remember the American Dream?), think for themselves, challenge the established order (edit: i.e., they might decide to become the powerful and the leaders themselves). Now they know their places - don't get an education, and take a job where you won't ever need one. Sad to see the American Dream abandoned and people just giving up. Of course, the wealthy kids still get the education - they are in a different class in our new class-based system. Also, education costs money, and that is the hardline priority over everything, including fundamental human welfare such as health care and education.

majormajor 4y ago
Most college education right now opens up very little in terms of "socio-economic advancement" besides being "ticks the right box" on an application. Which is basically the opposite of "think for themselves, challenge the established order." The status quo there isn't great; the wealthy were getting very different college degrees anyway and going into very different jobs.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  What is your basis for that claim? The fact is that people earn far more with a college degree. The rest is baseless speculation.
kaitai 4y ago
I have a friend with no college degree but a number of certifications in the insurance industry and most of a master's degree in a humanities field. Should said friend be allowed to proofread communications going out from Angie Craig's office? I have a friend with an associate's degree who has great customer service skills. Should said friend be allowed to be a receptionist for Angie Craig? I love education, I indulged in several degrees beyond college. I use those for highly specialized work now. But my spouse works at a hospital that literally can't carry out specialty surgeries right now because they can't hire enough low-paid staff for overnight support (not medical staff, but the other warm bodies who need to be around) and they can't staff the phone room for appointments, because they require a college degree of the person who calls you to confirm if 8 am will work or not. Folks with college degrees want to do something with their degree beyond confirming that 8 am is still good -- and can get paid more just about anywhere else. Plenty of my lower-income friends & neighbors would've loved to have at least some college. But how do you pay $20k a year while also paying $10k for daycare and >$18k for rent when you're making $44k a year, the median pay for a high school grad in MN right now? I applaud Angie Craig for opening up opportunities for advancement for talented people.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Is MN State (not just Mankato) really 20k a year? Is CC really 20k a year there?
  - kaitai 4y ago
    Mankato state is $14k a year before books etc. Metro State is cheaper, if you pick the right classes. Someplace like Concordia is $20k or a bit more; Hamline or Augsburg is up to $40k. Sure it's all sticker price. I tried to pick a number on the low end for the Twin Cities given the location of Craig's office. The 2 year colleges are cheaper but the requirement above is specifically for 4 yr degrees.
- pc86 4y ago
  I don't think you can have "most of a master's degree" when you're missing the obvious pre-requisite of a bachelor's degree.
  - kaitai 4y ago
    Sure you can. All you have to do is get admitted. I have a friend with a PhD and no high school or college degree. This person is indeed both smart and good at talking their way into things.
- sdfghswe 4y ago
  > I have a friend with no college degree but a number of certifications in the insurance industry and most of a master's degree in a humanities field. Should said friend be allowed to proofread communications going out from Angie Craig's office? > I have a friend with an associate's degree who has great customer service skills. Should said friend be allowed to be a receptionist for Angie Craig? Do you think these two people are representative of the uneducated population? I'm not suggesting that if you don't have an education then you can't be smart and competent. I'm suggesting that such people are a minority. So having an education is a useful signal, if not fullproof.
tombert 4y ago
I am pretty much part of the academic system now (part time professor, part time PhD student) working in a field that generally expects a degree (software engineering). I don't think anyone would call me "anti-intellectual", and I live in one of the highest-taxed states in the country. That being said, I really think it's reductive to say that not require a college degree on every damn job is "abandoning the American Dream". I don't think college is for everyone, and it's certainly not for everyone straight after high school. I did really poorly in college the first time around, dropped out, and did much better nine years later. I am very grateful that I was able to find work decent work without a degree.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > I really think it's reductive to say that not require a college degree on every damn job is "abandoning the American Dream" This is the quality of argument in your job? I perhaps overestimated academia after all.
  - tombert 4y ago
    Ha! That's what I get for trying to write on my phone; I have a bad habit of omitting words when I do that. First, I would like to say that, in my experience, academics aren't really any smarter than basically anyone with a desk job. It's not terribly hard to become an adjunct professor; depending on the state and/or school, you can become an adjunct with just a bachelors degree (though most require masters degrees or higher), and there are plenty of very dumb people who manage to get their BS or BA. Second, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think that the parent that I was responding to was correct about this being an "abandonment of the American Dream". I think it should be encouraged to lower the educational bar for a lot of jobs.
segasaturn 4y ago
[flagged]
wincy 4y ago
I grew up in a trailer in a poor town. I’m a high school dropout, am in my mid thirties and became a software engineering team lead last year. I feel lucky that I make a great income that I can support my family, and nobody I work with cares about my education. They care that I know the field and have insights into how to solve the problems we encounter. I’m doing better than almost every person I went to high school with, and my friends with advanced degrees (like philosophy) have either become software engineers or are saddled with more debt than they’ll ever be able to repay. I don’t see how that’s better? I feel like my choice was the right one. Maybe it’s survivorship bias, but school was not for me and I’m glad I get to do work I’m proud of, and feel that going to college is a mistake for a lot of people.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > my friends with advanced degrees (like philosophy) have either become software engineers or are saddled with more debt than they’ll ever be able to repay. I don’t see how that’s better? Your sample size represents nothing, of course (nor does my personal experience), and I agree that college is much too expensive. So saying that college isn't worthwhile because it's too expensive is circular. Education, including college, provides far more than a career. It was in my humanities education that I learned that framing the argument is most of the battle. The anti-intellectuals / anti-liberal / low-tax crowd claims there is no value in intellect and other things learned in college; the only value is later money earned. They express that by framing the debate around career and income - do you see that when others respond in that frame, that 'crowd' already has won the debate and nobody else even realized it happened. You can see many or most people in this discussion talking within that frame, as if it's an assumed truth and not a radical rejection of the Enlightenment - that through knowledge and reason we can control our destiny and change the fate of ours and our communities and societies. Career is just a side issue. It's life. It's every day, in everything - our experience, understanding, love, family, community, citizen, etc etc. And also in career (including undertanding economics, the history of labor, the politics of the relationships, how to communicate, etc.). > going to college is a mistake for a lot of people Is going to high school a mistake? Middle school? Where do we draw the line? Why at 12 years and not 16 years? Do you have any basis for this? How about we let people individually decide if they want to go to college, instead of others deciding for them. The fact is, many more want to go than do go.
gnicholas 4y ago
> Instead of better educating our population We need to do a better job educating our population, for sure. Most of the failings are at the K12 level. IMO (as someone who works in edtech, in both K12 and higher ed), the primary issue with higher education is not that we're not doing a good job of educating students, it's that the cost is sky-high and does not correlate well to the value provided. So much of the value is in signaling and network-building, not in the actual teaching itself. So IMO, this is not a choice between "better educating our population" and reducing the reliance on college degrees. The percent of the population that gets a college degree has shot up in the last 70 years, and it's likely we've overshot the sweet spot. The pendulum is starting to swing back a bit, and hopefully we'll reach an equilibrium point that makes sense and is affordable. To your point, I even hope that when we reduce our overspending at the higher ed level, the government will be able to shift those resources to K12, where the bigger failings are happening.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > So much of the value is in signaling and network-building, not in the actual teaching itself. People keep repeating that, but what is the basis? Reptition doesn't signal truth; it signals the opposite, arguably, that people are following each other rather than examining the facts and arguments. It's certainly not my experience.
sparselogic 4y ago
Left unexamined: how long ago and why did employers decide that a 4-year degree was the minimum qualification for general employment? And why should someone without a degree be excluded from socio-economic advancement, thinking for themselves, or challenging the established order? If anything, professional success based on work instead of degrees is a challenge to the current established order. :) The American Dream doesn't need to be degree examiners gatekeeping it. If you care about socioeconomic advancement, don't pull the ladder up by excluding people without degrees: instead, make sure you don't require folks to jump through hoops before doing work that they already have the skills to do. And to the "authoritarian-reactionaries" dig: note that the Congresswoman in this article is pursuing this as a progressive. Same with the new governor of Pennsylvania: https://www.penncapital-star.com/government-politics/in-his-first-executive-order-shapiro-removes-degree-requirement-for-thousands-of-state-jobs/ https://www.penncapital-star.com/government-politics/in-his-... (signed: child of an immigrant with an 8th grade education for whom the American Dream is alive and well)
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > And why should someone without a degree be excluded from socio-economic advancement, thinking for themselves, or challenging the established order? If anything, professional success based on work instead of degrees is a challenge to the current established order. :) They aren't excluded; education empowers people to do it much more. Professional success is almost always within the established order and supports it; I'm not sure what you mean there. > The American Dream doesn't need to be degree examiners gatekeeping it. If you care about socioeconomic advancement, don't pull the ladder up by excluding people without degrees: I'm not pulling up the ladder, I'm lowering it and broadening it into a grand, wide staircase. I'm not suggesting people be excluded from jobs (I don't know where you got that), but that they have the opportunity to do more. > And to the "authoritarian-reactionaries" dig: note that the Congresswoman in this article is pursuing this as a progressive. Same with the new governor of Pennsylvania: Right. It's not a dig; it's a serious issue. I said that the authoritarian-reactionaries have convinced others, and that includes the member of congress and the governor. Are they expanding access to college education? I'll bet the children of both politicians are going to college. > child of an immigrant with an 8th grade education for whom the American Dream is alive and well The Dream isn't alive and well if you want a college education.
ryan93 4y ago
Selection effects are unimaginably strong on this subject.

majormajor 4y ago

Most college education right now opens up very little in terms of "socio-economic advancement" besides being "ticks the right box" on an application. Which is basically the opposite of "think for themselves, challenge the established order." The status quo there isn't great; the wealthy were getting very different college degrees anyway and going into very different jobs.

wolverine876 4y ago
What is your basis for that claim? The fact is that people earn far more with a college degree. The rest is baseless speculation.

kaitai 4y ago

I have a friend with no college degree but a number of certifications in the insurance industry and most of a master's degree in a humanities field. Should said friend be allowed to proofread communications going out from Angie Craig's office? I have a friend with an associate's degree who has great customer service skills. Should said friend be allowed to be a receptionist for Angie Craig? I love education, I indulged in several degrees beyond college. I use those for highly specialized work now. But my spouse works at a hospital that literally can't carry out specialty surgeries right now because they can't hire enough low-paid staff for overnight support (not medical staff, but the other warm bodies who need to be around) and they can't staff the phone room for appointments, because they require a college degree of the person who calls you to confirm if 8 am will work or not. Folks with college degrees want to do something with their degree beyond confirming that 8 am is still good -- and can get paid more just about anywhere else. Plenty of my lower-income friends & neighbors would've loved to have at least some college. But how do you pay $20k a year while also paying $10k for daycare and >$18k for rent when you're making $44k a year, the median pay for a high school grad in MN right now? I applaud Angie Craig for opening up opportunities for advancement for talented people.

selimthegrim 4y ago
Is MN State (not just Mankato) really 20k a year? Is CC really 20k a year there?
- kaitai 4y ago
  Mankato state is $14k a year before books etc. Metro State is cheaper, if you pick the right classes. Someplace like Concordia is $20k or a bit more; Hamline or Augsburg is up to $40k. Sure it's all sticker price. I tried to pick a number on the low end for the Twin Cities given the location of Craig's office. The 2 year colleges are cheaper but the requirement above is specifically for 4 yr degrees.
pc86 4y ago
I don't think you can have "most of a master's degree" when you're missing the obvious pre-requisite of a bachelor's degree.
- kaitai 4y ago
  Sure you can. All you have to do is get admitted. I have a friend with a PhD and no high school or college degree. This person is indeed both smart and good at talking their way into things.
sdfghswe 4y ago
> I have a friend with no college degree but a number of certifications in the insurance industry and most of a master's degree in a humanities field. Should said friend be allowed to proofread communications going out from Angie Craig's office? > I have a friend with an associate's degree who has great customer service skills. Should said friend be allowed to be a receptionist for Angie Craig? Do you think these two people are representative of the uneducated population? I'm not suggesting that if you don't have an education then you can't be smart and competent. I'm suggesting that such people are a minority. So having an education is a useful signal, if not fullproof.

tombert 4y ago

I am pretty much part of the academic system now (part time professor, part time PhD student) working in a field that generally expects a degree (software engineering). I don't think anyone would call me "anti-intellectual", and I live in one of the highest-taxed states in the country. That being said, I really think it's reductive to say that not require a college degree on every damn job is "abandoning the American Dream". I don't think college is for everyone, and it's certainly not for everyone straight after high school. I did really poorly in college the first time around, dropped out, and did much better nine years later. I am very grateful that I was able to find work decent work without a degree.

wolverine876 4y ago
> I really think it's reductive to say that not require a college degree on every damn job is "abandoning the American Dream" This is the quality of argument in your job? I perhaps overestimated academia after all.
- tombert 4y ago
  Ha! That's what I get for trying to write on my phone; I have a bad habit of omitting words when I do that. First, I would like to say that, in my experience, academics aren't really any smarter than basically anyone with a desk job. It's not terribly hard to become an adjunct professor; depending on the state and/or school, you can become an adjunct with just a bachelors degree (though most require masters degrees or higher), and there are plenty of very dumb people who manage to get their BS or BA. Second, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think that the parent that I was responding to was correct about this being an "abandonment of the American Dream". I think it should be encouraged to lower the educational bar for a lot of jobs.

segasaturn 4y ago

[flagged]

wincy 4y ago

I grew up in a trailer in a poor town. I’m a high school dropout, am in my mid thirties and became a software engineering team lead last year. I feel lucky that I make a great income that I can support my family, and nobody I work with cares about my education. They care that I know the field and have insights into how to solve the problems we encounter. I’m doing better than almost every person I went to high school with, and my friends with advanced degrees (like philosophy) have either become software engineers or are saddled with more debt than they’ll ever be able to repay. I don’t see how that’s better? I feel like my choice was the right one. Maybe it’s survivorship bias, but school was not for me and I’m glad I get to do work I’m proud of, and feel that going to college is a mistake for a lot of people.

wolverine876 4y ago
> my friends with advanced degrees (like philosophy) have either become software engineers or are saddled with more debt than they’ll ever be able to repay. I don’t see how that’s better? Your sample size represents nothing, of course (nor does my personal experience), and I agree that college is much too expensive. So saying that college isn't worthwhile because it's too expensive is circular. Education, including college, provides far more than a career. It was in my humanities education that I learned that framing the argument is most of the battle. The anti-intellectuals / anti-liberal / low-tax crowd claims there is no value in intellect and other things learned in college; the only value is later money earned. They express that by framing the debate around career and income - do you see that when others respond in that frame, that 'crowd' already has won the debate and nobody else even realized it happened. You can see many or most people in this discussion talking within that frame, as if it's an assumed truth and not a radical rejection of the Enlightenment - that through knowledge and reason we can control our destiny and change the fate of ours and our communities and societies. Career is just a side issue. It's life. It's every day, in everything - our experience, understanding, love, family, community, citizen, etc etc. And also in career (including undertanding economics, the history of labor, the politics of the relationships, how to communicate, etc.). > going to college is a mistake for a lot of people Is going to high school a mistake? Middle school? Where do we draw the line? Why at 12 years and not 16 years? Do you have any basis for this? How about we let people individually decide if they want to go to college, instead of others deciding for them. The fact is, many more want to go than do go.

gnicholas 4y ago

> Instead of better educating our population We need to do a better job educating our population, for sure. Most of the failings are at the K12 level. IMO (as someone who works in edtech, in both K12 and higher ed), the primary issue with higher education is not that we're not doing a good job of educating students, it's that the cost is sky-high and does not correlate well to the value provided. So much of the value is in signaling and network-building, not in the actual teaching itself. So IMO, this is not a choice between "better educating our population" and reducing the reliance on college degrees. The percent of the population that gets a college degree has shot up in the last 70 years, and it's likely we've overshot the sweet spot. The pendulum is starting to swing back a bit, and hopefully we'll reach an equilibrium point that makes sense and is affordable. To your point, I even hope that when we reduce our overspending at the higher ed level, the government will be able to shift those resources to K12, where the bigger failings are happening.

wolverine876 4y ago
> So much of the value is in signaling and network-building, not in the actual teaching itself. People keep repeating that, but what is the basis? Reptition doesn't signal truth; it signals the opposite, arguably, that people are following each other rather than examining the facts and arguments. It's certainly not my experience.

sparselogic 4y ago

Left unexamined: how long ago and why did employers decide that a 4-year degree was the minimum qualification for general employment? And why should someone without a degree be excluded from socio-economic advancement, thinking for themselves, or challenging the established order? If anything, professional success based on work instead of degrees is a challenge to the current established order. :) The American Dream doesn't need to be degree examiners gatekeeping it. If you care about socioeconomic advancement, don't pull the ladder up by excluding people without degrees: instead, make sure you don't require folks to jump through hoops before doing work that they already have the skills to do. And to the "authoritarian-reactionaries" dig: note that the Congresswoman in this article is pursuing this as a progressive. Same with the new governor of Pennsylvania: https://www.penncapital-star.com/government-politics/in-his-first-executive-order-shapiro-removes-degree-requirement-for-thousands-of-state-jobs/ https://www.penncapital-star.com/government-politics/in-his-... (signed: child of an immigrant with an 8th grade education for whom the American Dream is alive and well)

wolverine876 4y ago
> And why should someone without a degree be excluded from socio-economic advancement, thinking for themselves, or challenging the established order? If anything, professional success based on work instead of degrees is a challenge to the current established order. :) They aren't excluded; education empowers people to do it much more. Professional success is almost always within the established order and supports it; I'm not sure what you mean there. > The American Dream doesn't need to be degree examiners gatekeeping it. If you care about socioeconomic advancement, don't pull the ladder up by excluding people without degrees: I'm not pulling up the ladder, I'm lowering it and broadening it into a grand, wide staircase. I'm not suggesting people be excluded from jobs (I don't know where you got that), but that they have the opportunity to do more. > And to the "authoritarian-reactionaries" dig: note that the Congresswoman in this article is pursuing this as a progressive. Same with the new governor of Pennsylvania: Right. It's not a dig; it's a serious issue. I said that the authoritarian-reactionaries have convinced others, and that includes the member of congress and the governor. Are they expanding access to college education? I'll bet the children of both politicians are going to college. > child of an immigrant with an 8th grade education for whom the American Dream is alive and well The Dream isn't alive and well if you want a college education.

ryan93 4y ago

Selection effects are unimaginably strong on this subject.