3 ms·

The problem isn't Webkit, or even web developers targeting webkit. The problem is that we have a de facto standard for rounded corners on the web, and it's stil

by cheald 15y ago

The problem isn't Webkit, or even web developers targeting webkit. The problem is that we have a de facto standard for rounded corners on the web, and it's still not an accepted standard. The W3C designs and approves CSS draft specs on a schedule that makes IE development cycles look speedy. The web moves faster than that now. The first CSS3 draft for the backgrounds and borders module was published in 2001. ELEVEN YEARS LATER it's still not a finalized standard. And the problem is developers? I've been using -moz and -webkit and -o vendor prefixes for years now, with virtually no variation or change. Why don't we have a standardized border-radius yet? By the time the W3C actually settles on a standard, the industry will be twelve draft specs ahead of them in production for all practical purposes. I really, really dislike the idea of non-webkit vendors implementing support for webkit prefixes. Stick to your own prefixes. Don't break the rules to make up for lazy or bad developers. That's a huge part of why IE was such a pain in our collective asses for so many years. When you coddle lazy or bad developers, you end up breeding an entire crop of developers who end up creating terrible legacy systems that will plague us for years to come. Just say no. If you have to do something, go ahead and implement the draft spec. Developers: Use Sass or LESS or similar. Start worrying about presentation and stop worrying about implementation. Until the W3C gets its act together, use tools that help you do the right thing with the least amount of effort. Everyone wins.

yuhong 15y ago
CSS3 Background and Borders is a candidate recommendation, which means in most recent browsers it can already be used unprefixed.
- cheald 15y ago
  And it reached that Candidate Recommendation status nearly one year ago, only ten years after it was first introduced. I'm picking on border-radius because it's an easy target, but the fact remains that large pieces of CSS3 remain in "working draft" statuses. Microsoft went all cowboy and gunked up the web with their "standards be damned, we'll do it live" approach to IE, and since then, other browser vendors have been extremely spec compliant in an attempt to avoid the same sort of mess that IE got us into, but they're hogtied by a standards body that takes longer to work out border-radius than it takes for most web companies to be born, flourish, and die.
azakai 15y ago
> I really, really dislike the idea of non-webkit vendors implementing support for webkit prefixes. Stick to your own prefixes. Don't break the rules to make up for lazy or bad developers. I sympathize with the sentiment. But you are asking all the non-WebKit browsers to not render the mobile web properly. Like it or not, WebKit won on mobile. People wrote tons of websites that only render correctly on the iOS and Android browsers. Other browsers can't change that by not implementing the WebKit prefixes. In fact without implementing them, they make it harder for themselves to gain market share - the only thing that can prevent a single implementation like IE or WebKit from becoming a de-facto standard. Other browsers can evangelize - go around and ask website makers to write to standards, not to what currently works in WebKit. They are already doing that as much as they can. It isn't making much of a difference.
- cageface 15y ago
  The web is at enough of a disadvantage WRT native apps as it is. If you disallow the kinds of enhancements that depend on a more intimate relationship with the browser, like -webkit prefixes, you put them that much further behind.
- zobzu 15y ago
  exactly, and that is why webkit (but not only - aka the extensions) are the problem. if the browser has a large market share people will use it 'wrong' aka not just for experimentation. its like waving with free candy and blaming people for taking it.
- dave1010uk 15y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "WebKit won on mobile" (maybe you mean in US) but you may be interested to know that the most popular mobile browser is Opera [1]. WebKit still has a majority when you combine iPhone, Android and Nokias but I wouldn't say it's won. The race for the mobile web isn't over yet. [1] http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/01/browser_stats_f_2.html http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/01/browser_stat...
  - rplnt 15y ago

by cheald 15y ago

yuhong 15y ago

CSS3 Background and Borders is a candidate recommendation, which means in most recent browsers it can already be used unprefixed.

cheald 15y ago
And it reached that Candidate Recommendation status nearly one year ago, only ten years after it was first introduced. I'm picking on border-radius because it's an easy target, but the fact remains that large pieces of CSS3 remain in "working draft" statuses. Microsoft went all cowboy and gunked up the web with their "standards be damned, we'll do it live" approach to IE, and since then, other browser vendors have been extremely spec compliant in an attempt to avoid the same sort of mess that IE got us into, but they're hogtied by a standards body that takes longer to work out border-radius than it takes for most web companies to be born, flourish, and die.

azakai 15y ago

> I really, really dislike the idea of non-webkit vendors implementing support for webkit prefixes. Stick to your own prefixes. Don't break the rules to make up for lazy or bad developers. I sympathize with the sentiment. But you are asking all the non-WebKit browsers to not render the mobile web properly. Like it or not, WebKit won on mobile. People wrote tons of websites that only render correctly on the iOS and Android browsers. Other browsers can't change that by not implementing the WebKit prefixes. In fact without implementing them, they make it harder for themselves to gain market share - the only thing that can prevent a single implementation like IE or WebKit from becoming a de-facto standard. Other browsers can evangelize - go around and ask website makers to write to standards, not to what currently works in WebKit. They are already doing that as much as they can. It isn't making much of a difference.

cageface 15y ago
The web is at enough of a disadvantage WRT native apps as it is. If you disallow the kinds of enhancements that depend on a more intimate relationship with the browser, like -webkit prefixes, you put them that much further behind.
zobzu 15y ago
exactly, and that is why webkit (but not only - aka the extensions) are the problem. if the browser has a large market share people will use it 'wrong' aka not just for experimentation. its like waving with free candy and blaming people for taking it.
dave1010uk 15y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "WebKit won on mobile" (maybe you mean in US) but you may be interested to know that the most popular mobile browser is Opera [1]. WebKit still has a majority when you combine iPhone, Android and Nokias but I wouldn't say it's won. The race for the mobile web isn't over yet. [1] http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/01/browser_stats_f_2.html http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/01/browser_stat...
- rplnt 15y ago