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I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to s

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that is hiring officers who understand the system and want to improve and protect rather than a jobs system for those who want to exercise power over others.

sandworm101 4y ago
>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and violent justice is baked into American culture as much as guns and alcohol. >>Part of that is education. I agree, but it isn't the people in the system that need an education. It is the voting public outside who need the better understanding.
- txru 4y ago
  I think a few things happened in 2020 that show that at least some of the general public are unhappy and want changes...
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember Who are you referring to?
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    Every community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge. Every pundit who says that person X is "soft" on crime and person Y is "hard" as if that makes any difference. Every idiot out there who wants drug dealers locked up for life yet is unable to address their own addition to prescriptions. Every armchair lawyer who will spend hours outlining how judges should rule on hypothetical cases, but has never spent a day inside an actual courtroom. Every idiot who thinks his speeding ticket as important as a murder trial. And every one of the to-be sovereign citizens at YouTube university. After than, then we go after the flat earthers.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge Have you been to these? I have, in states red and blue. It's rarely a rah rah. Instead, people have complaints about specific categories of crimes, usually ones relevant to the community. The question is less locking people up than catching them. Policing. Sentencing is a separate system from policing.
      - sandworm101 4y ago
        >> Sentencing is a separate system from policing. Again, not in reality. Absent unlimited resources, street-level police determine which crimes are "policed" based on the severity of associated punishments. Change the punishment for drug dealing from a prison sentence to a minor fine and police will all but stop hunting drug dealers. Start sentencing jaywalkers to prison time and you will see cops at every pedestrian crossing. Sentencing is the guide by which police determine which laws the public most wants to see enforced.
catiopatio 4y ago
Hiring people from a sociology/social justice background would just mean the same abuses of power, but different targets. Policing has gone in this direction in the UK, and now you have mothers being arrested in front of their children after “misgendering” someone online: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scottow/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scotto... > St Albans Magistrates’ Court found her guilty, under the Communications Act (2003), of using a public communications network to “cause annoyance, inconvenience and anxiety”. Fortunately, she eventually won on appeal and her conviction was overturned, but the process itself was the punishment. Police need less power, not more sociology degrees.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  That sounds more like a problem with the law than with the police.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    Policing isn’t independent of the law or legal culture, and police have enormous discretion in how they choose to apply the law. There’s also the entire issue of “non-criminal bias incidents”: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/5238724/hate-crime-police-non-criminal-incidents-euan-mccolm-opinion/ https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/5238...
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Americans are normally the ones to myopically reduce the world's issues to their own, but sometimes the British are not to be bested!
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    I’m an American aware of how this idea has played out elsewhere.
chongli 4y ago
The US has a fairly large political contingent that believes in retributive justice, not rehabilitative or restorative justice. In a lot of places the police have a culture of the "warrior mentality" and well-meaning new officers are either brought in line or driven out of the profession. This is compounded by the huge numbers of private and illegal/black market firearms on the street which make policing extremely dangerous. The combination reinforces the warrior and the retributive justice cultures alike.
- elcritch 4y ago
  Note I don’t believe policing is in even the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the USA. I’m not sure the “extremely “ dangerous applies when driving a truck or most construction jobs are more dangerous.
  - chongli 4y ago
    This is similar to the issue with statistics around shark attacks. Sure, policing overall is pretty safe because 99.9% of the time you're not trying to arrest an armed and dangerous suspect. Sharks are safe too because 99.9+% of the time people aren't even in the ocean where they might encounter sharks. But if it's your job to go out into the ocean and interact with sharks face-to-face, those encounters are way more dangerous than the general statistics would have us believe. Same goes for police when they have to deal with an active shooter situation. That's what I mean by "extremely dangerous". Compared to Canada or most of Europe, the US has vastly more active shooter situations, and at least some of that can be attributed to the availability of firearms.

sandworm101 4y ago

>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and violent justice is baked into American culture as much as guns and alcohol. >>Part of that is education. I agree, but it isn't the people in the system that need an education. It is the voting public outside who need the better understanding.

txru 4y ago
I think a few things happened in 2020 that show that at least some of the general public are unhappy and want changes...
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember Who are you referring to?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Every community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge. Every pundit who says that person X is "soft" on crime and person Y is "hard" as if that makes any difference. Every idiot out there who wants drug dealers locked up for life yet is unable to address their own addition to prescriptions. Every armchair lawyer who will spend hours outlining how judges should rule on hypothetical cases, but has never spent a day inside an actual courtroom. Every idiot who thinks his speeding ticket as important as a murder trial. And every one of the to-be sovereign citizens at YouTube university. After than, then we go after the flat earthers.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge Have you been to these? I have, in states red and blue. It's rarely a rah rah. Instead, people have complaints about specific categories of crimes, usually ones relevant to the community. The question is less locking people up than catching them. Policing. Sentencing is a separate system from policing.
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      >> Sentencing is a separate system from policing. Again, not in reality. Absent unlimited resources, street-level police determine which crimes are "policed" based on the severity of associated punishments. Change the punishment for drug dealing from a prison sentence to a minor fine and police will all but stop hunting drug dealers. Start sentencing jaywalkers to prison time and you will see cops at every pedestrian crossing. Sentencing is the guide by which police determine which laws the public most wants to see enforced.

catiopatio 4y ago

Hiring people from a sociology/social justice background would just mean the same abuses of power, but different targets. Policing has gone in this direction in the UK, and now you have mothers being arrested in front of their children after “misgendering” someone online: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scottow/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scotto... > St Albans Magistrates’ Court found her guilty, under the Communications Act (2003), of using a public communications network to “cause annoyance, inconvenience and anxiety”. Fortunately, she eventually won on appeal and her conviction was overturned, but the process itself was the punishment. Police need less power, not more sociology degrees.

jaywalk 4y ago
That sounds more like a problem with the law than with the police.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  Policing isn’t independent of the law or legal culture, and police have enormous discretion in how they choose to apply the law. There’s also the entire issue of “non-criminal bias incidents”: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/5238724/hate-crime-police-non-criminal-incidents-euan-mccolm-opinion/ https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/5238...
woodruffw 4y ago
Americans are normally the ones to myopically reduce the world's issues to their own, but sometimes the British are not to be bested!
- catiopatio 4y ago
  I’m an American aware of how this idea has played out elsewhere.

chongli 4y ago

The US has a fairly large political contingent that believes in retributive justice, not rehabilitative or restorative justice. In a lot of places the police have a culture of the "warrior mentality" and well-meaning new officers are either brought in line or driven out of the profession. This is compounded by the huge numbers of private and illegal/black market firearms on the street which make policing extremely dangerous. The combination reinforces the warrior and the retributive justice cultures alike.

elcritch 4y ago
Note I don’t believe policing is in even the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the USA. I’m not sure the “extremely “ dangerous applies when driving a truck or most construction jobs are more dangerous.
- chongli 4y ago
  This is similar to the issue with statistics around shark attacks. Sure, policing overall is pretty safe because 99.9% of the time you're not trying to arrest an armed and dangerous suspect. Sharks are safe too because 99.9+% of the time people aren't even in the ocean where they might encounter sharks. But if it's your job to go out into the ocean and interact with sharks face-to-face, those encounters are way more dangerous than the general statistics would have us believe. Same goes for police when they have to deal with an active shooter situation. That's what I mean by "extremely dangerous". Compared to Canada or most of Europe, the US has vastly more active shooter situations, and at least some of that can be attributed to the availability of firearms.