4 ms·

Some of these comments baffle me. You might be surprised to learn that 30 y/o virgins and other sexually frustrated nerds are resentful of women, and consequen

Some of these comments baffle me. You might be surprised to learn that 30 y/o virgins and other sexually frustrated nerds are resentful of women, and consequently, don't believe that sexism exists. Let someone oppose this comment by asserting that the pristine, untouched nature of their junk is irrelevant to their point -- but the sexy attractiveness of a female speaker is fair game.

haberman 15y ago
> 30 y/o virgins and other sexually frustrated nerds [...] the pristine, untouched nature of their junk For someone who is offering a critique against inappropriate comments, what makes this ok? You've just ridiculed an entire group of people for what can be a very painful life circumstance, many of whom would never make or defend the kinds of comments you are criticizing.
- angelbob 15y ago
  Would they actually (out loud, audibly) object to those comments, or would they just "never make or defend" them? I ask because letting these things slide, or worse letting the comments seem approved-of by mass silence, is doing active harm.
  - haberman 15y ago
    It sounds like you're arguing that men have to "earn" not having their genitalia discussed or being mocked for their loneliness. Am I reading you right? Fuck this. This situation is not a license to lash out at an entire group and say things that in any other circumstance would be offensive and inappropriate. I would answer your question about objecting to those comments, but it seems pretty clear that there's an impossibly high standard for what a guy has to do to not be "guilty" for this crowd. Not even the guy who posted this blog entry objected "out loud, audibly" to this introduction at the time.
    - jessedhillon 15y ago
      ...it seems pretty clear that there's an impossibly high standard for what a guy has to do to not be "guilty" for this crowd. Are you kidding me? Have you read the other 100+ comments on this thread? My own comment went from +11 to +4, so you have plenty of company. By "this crowd" you must mean the handful of people who aren't scrambling to sustain their invulnerable self-image by cobbling together some half-assed theory from the little bits of pop-psych they've read. What is your big upset about? If someone introduced you at a conference as the "guy who has never been laid" instead of "the guy who did brilliant thing X," you'd have no problem seeing why that would be hurtful. Shit, at least not being laid is the result of your own (in)action, and therefore something you've arguably earned; being "sexy" is an artifact of an organism's constitution. Perhaps by hurting you, I've sidestepped the intellectualizing process that prevents you, or someone like you, from understanding that there are fundamental emotional wounds involved, not abstract intellectual concepts. Unsolicited advice to any man who still doesn't get it: when someone says "that hurts me" don't come back with "no it doesn't, here's why..."
      - potatolicious 15y ago
        Unsolicited advice to you: when countering hurtful statements, don't throw more onto the pile. Your response to "that's not sexist!" is "yes it is you bunch 'o lonely virgins!" Is this HN or high school?
      - haberman 15y ago
        > My own comment went from +11 to +4 That says to me that your mean-spirited comment was plenty popular until I pointed out its hypocrisy. > What is your big upset about? [...] when someone says "that hurts me" don't come back with "no it doesn't, here's why..." But apparently you still don't see your own hypocrisy. > Shit, at least not being laid is the result of your own (in)action, and therefore something you've arguably earned And you still think it's ok to be mean for no reason, not to mention speaking of things you know absolutely nothing about. > being "sexy" is an artifact of an organism's constitution. Being "sexy" is also a compliment, however misguided or inappropriate it may have been in the situation in which it was given. Your comments on the other hand are intentionally mean. I don't deny that some people inappropriately defend the "sexy" comment. But it's a chicken shit move to use that as a license to suspend the rules of civility to make your point.
- ben0x539 15y ago
  I think the grandparent's post was important to this discussion because it makes the "inappropriate sex-related comments" issue thing slightly more relatable for those of us who have not had to deal with sexual harassment professionally.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- Retric 15y ago
  Be careful, your falling into the same cognitive trap as _ists. There is no universal response to rejection or pain, but some responses are far more memorable which feeds into the idea that there exists some pattern. Consider in the US women kill more men than men kill women. Violence in the US is at the lowest levels in the history of this country. Historically, Christians have been more violent than Muslims. Reading that, it's easy to feel cognitive dissonance as preconceived notions don't actually fit reality. But, that's the thing intuition is not setup to analyze society in much the same way that people are vary poor at balancing risk and rewards.
- arguesalot 15y ago
  You just explained what s wrong with unsubstantiated groupthink and bullying. I won't buy your book.
  - ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
    Group think? There's only two people in these comments with that opinion here. Also we aren't bullying men, we're just trying to understand them through controversial and offensive theories. We're not treating them differently. Men on the other hand DO seem to treat women differently. I've seen it myself many many times. You're "one of those guys" aren't you?
    - arguesalot 15y ago
      As retric says, your assumptions are wrong. Aggression is typically not returned to the rejecting object but to others. The offensive theories also happen to be wrong. For the record, I am not one of those guys (curious, did u use that as an insult?)
groby_b 15y ago
This comment is of course in no way any more appropriate than the conference introduction.
- josephcooney 15y ago
  I thought that was the point. Making a group of people who are usually dishing out this kind of thing think twice about how it feels to have the situation reversed.
  - groby_b 15y ago
    I don't think that's the proper way to deal with it. We don't go around beating people up so they know what it feels either. The point is, if behavior is wrong, it is _always_ wrong. It's not a good idea (in my book) to engage in this kind of behavior to make a point.
rmc 15y ago
I am mostly on the same side of this debate as you, but I don't think debate is helped by insulting people and telling them that are unable to have an opinion due to the sexual history.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
arguesalot 15y ago
The connection between frustration and aggressiveness is largely false (1) , unless you can point to a reliable source. The nerds that I know are not at all as you describe, and I wonder why you choose such derisive words. http://www.jstor.org/pss/349577 http://www.jstor.org/pss/349577

haberman 15y ago

> 30 y/o virgins and other sexually frustrated nerds [...] the pristine, untouched nature of their junk For someone who is offering a critique against inappropriate comments, what makes this ok? You've just ridiculed an entire group of people for what can be a very painful life circumstance, many of whom would never make or defend the kinds of comments you are criticizing.

angelbob 15y ago
Would they actually (out loud, audibly) object to those comments, or would they just "never make or defend" them? I ask because letting these things slide, or worse letting the comments seem approved-of by mass silence, is doing active harm.
- haberman 15y ago
  It sounds like you're arguing that men have to "earn" not having their genitalia discussed or being mocked for their loneliness. Am I reading you right? Fuck this. This situation is not a license to lash out at an entire group and say things that in any other circumstance would be offensive and inappropriate. I would answer your question about objecting to those comments, but it seems pretty clear that there's an impossibly high standard for what a guy has to do to not be "guilty" for this crowd. Not even the guy who posted this blog entry objected "out loud, audibly" to this introduction at the time.
  - jessedhillon 15y ago
    ...it seems pretty clear that there's an impossibly high standard for what a guy has to do to not be "guilty" for this crowd. Are you kidding me? Have you read the other 100+ comments on this thread? My own comment went from +11 to +4, so you have plenty of company. By "this crowd" you must mean the handful of people who aren't scrambling to sustain their invulnerable self-image by cobbling together some half-assed theory from the little bits of pop-psych they've read. What is your big upset about? If someone introduced you at a conference as the "guy who has never been laid" instead of "the guy who did brilliant thing X," you'd have no problem seeing why that would be hurtful. Shit, at least not being laid is the result of your own (in)action, and therefore something you've arguably earned; being "sexy" is an artifact of an organism's constitution. Perhaps by hurting you, I've sidestepped the intellectualizing process that prevents you, or someone like you, from understanding that there are fundamental emotional wounds involved, not abstract intellectual concepts. Unsolicited advice to any man who still doesn't get it: when someone says "that hurts me" don't come back with "no it doesn't, here's why..."
    - potatolicious 15y ago
      Unsolicited advice to you: when countering hurtful statements, don't throw more onto the pile. Your response to "that's not sexist!" is "yes it is you bunch 'o lonely virgins!" Is this HN or high school?
    - haberman 15y ago
      > My own comment went from +11 to +4 That says to me that your mean-spirited comment was plenty popular until I pointed out its hypocrisy. > What is your big upset about? [...] when someone says "that hurts me" don't come back with "no it doesn't, here's why..." But apparently you still don't see your own hypocrisy. > Shit, at least not being laid is the result of your own (in)action, and therefore something you've arguably earned And you still think it's ok to be mean for no reason, not to mention speaking of things you know absolutely nothing about. > being "sexy" is an artifact of an organism's constitution. Being "sexy" is also a compliment, however misguided or inappropriate it may have been in the situation in which it was given. Your comments on the other hand are intentionally mean. I don't deny that some people inappropriately defend the "sexy" comment. But it's a chicken shit move to use that as a license to suspend the rules of civility to make your point.
ben0x539 15y ago
I think the grandparent's post was important to this discussion because it makes the "inappropriate sex-related comments" issue thing slightly more relatable for those of us who have not had to deal with sexual harassment professionally.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Retric 15y ago
Be careful, your falling into the same cognitive trap as _ists. There is no universal response to rejection or pain, but some responses are far more memorable which feeds into the idea that there exists some pattern. Consider in the US women kill more men than men kill women. Violence in the US is at the lowest levels in the history of this country. Historically, Christians have been more violent than Muslims. Reading that, it's easy to feel cognitive dissonance as preconceived notions don't actually fit reality. But, that's the thing intuition is not setup to analyze society in much the same way that people are vary poor at balancing risk and rewards.
arguesalot 15y ago
You just explained what s wrong with unsubstantiated groupthink and bullying. I won't buy your book.
- ChrisNorstrom 15y ago
  Group think? There's only two people in these comments with that opinion here. Also we aren't bullying men, we're just trying to understand them through controversial and offensive theories. We're not treating them differently. Men on the other hand DO seem to treat women differently. I've seen it myself many many times. You're "one of those guys" aren't you?
  - arguesalot 15y ago
    As retric says, your assumptions are wrong. Aggression is typically not returned to the rejecting object but to others. The offensive theories also happen to be wrong. For the record, I am not one of those guys (curious, did u use that as an insult?)

groby_b 15y ago

This comment is of course in no way any more appropriate than the conference introduction.

josephcooney 15y ago
I thought that was the point. Making a group of people who are usually dishing out this kind of thing think twice about how it feels to have the situation reversed.
- groby_b 15y ago
  I don't think that's the proper way to deal with it. We don't go around beating people up so they know what it feels either. The point is, if behavior is wrong, it is _always_ wrong. It's not a good idea (in my book) to engage in this kind of behavior to make a point.

rmc 15y ago

I am mostly on the same side of this debate as you, but I don't think debate is helped by insulting people and telling them that are unable to have an opinion due to the sexual history.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

arguesalot 15y ago

The connection between frustration and aggressiveness is largely false (1) , unless you can point to a reliable source. The nerds that I know are not at all as you describe, and I wonder why you choose such derisive words. http://www.jstor.org/pss/349577 http://www.jstor.org/pss/349577