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> College degrees don’t seem to have done anything to make the police less abusive Sorry, but can we try to talk in facts? In Canada, since 2000, there have b

by nawgz 3y ago

> College degrees don’t seem to have done anything to make the police less abusive Sorry, but can we try to talk in facts? In Canada, since 2000, there have been 704 police-involved deaths [0]. Let's take a conservative population of 30M for Canada (which will inflate this stat) - then we get: 704 / 22 / 30M => 1 in 1 million Canadians die at the hands of police per year On the other hand, in the US, there were 1022 police shootings in 2022 alone [1]. 1022 / 331M => 3 in 1 million Americans are SHOT by police per year. There's already a >3x discrepancy while using only US police shootings vs all Canadian police-involved deaths, and I'm sure the police killed plenty of people with tasers, beatings, and negligence in the US in 2022 too. So, in general, I disagree with your claim that university education hasn't done anything to make Canadian police better than US police, and it's unlikely you'll change that opinion unless you bring some statistics into this conversation. [0]: https://newsroom.carleton.ca/story/police-involved-deaths-canada-rise/ https://newsroom.carleton.ca/story/police-involved-deaths-ca... [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...

augment003 3y ago
Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.
- nawgz 3y ago
  > your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that US police are probably 4-8x more lethal than Canadian police per capita So, since the police is clearly not about to properly train their people, let's not dismiss the value of a university degree as a filter, since it appears from a high level view that a university degree could serve to make a police officer 1/5th as likely to kill a citizen compared to a diploma. Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier, related to crime statistics or otherwise, or will you just continue to say "the police should train their people", not hold them to account for not training their people, and also excuse them for dropping educational requirements that served in lieu of that training?
  - augment003 3y ago
    So, you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Even if your premises were correct, it wouldn’t be worth trying to debate that further. Hint: They aren’t. Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees, and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees. It isn’t what you think. Also, you might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US, and inform yourself of the differences between Canadian gun culture and the US.
    - nawgz 3y ago
      > You might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US Canadian police are also quite racist, but if you're arguing that "less educated American cops are more racist", that tracks pretty nicely with "please don't accept less educated cops" > you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Do you have a different explanation? > Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees According to [0], the breakdown of US officer max education of no college/college diploma/undergrad/grad is: * 49/20/25/5 > and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees And, according to [1], for Canadian officers, it's: * 19/51/29/1.6 Quite a disparity. Especially when you consider sources like [2][3], which argue that: > "Studies have found that a small proportion of police officers – about 5% – produce most citizen complaints, and officers with a two-year degree are about half as likely to be in the high-rate complaint group" Overall, I believe there's lots of evidence suggesting more educated police are better police and citizens, and none suggesting the opposite - that less educated police are better. Across the board, Canadian police are significantly better educated, with the exception of less Graduated degrees. Across the board, Canadian police are less deadly to their citizens. Not a coincidence - go ahead and say some more stupid shit though. [0]: https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education [1]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14146-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article... [2]: https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should-have-college-degrees-140523 https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should... Source of the quote [3]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235210000048 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... Source of the info behind the quote, paywalled
jpadkins 3y ago
Compare Canada to Vermont, NH, Wisconsin, Montana and Idaho and see if your difference still holds. USA is a big place, with very different cultures and outcomes. Once you compare Canada to states that are culturally like Canada, your university hypothesis doesn't look to be correct. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/police-killings-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/police-kill...
- nawgz 3y ago
  Can you provide more sources that show Police education by state? While I don't disagree with the premise you are suggesting in and of itself, the link you've provided is entirely insufficient to make the calculations about police education and per capita police violence rate I found [0], which in Appendix F has a state-by-state breakdown for only some states. Cross referencing it with your data source is useless, all the top states for per-capita police killings have their data omitted from that table. [0]: https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/PF-Report-Policing-Around-the-Nation_10-2017_Final.pdf https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10...

by nawgz 3y ago

augment003 3y ago

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

nawgz 3y ago
> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that US police are probably 4-8x more lethal than Canadian police per capita So, since the police is clearly not about to properly train their people, let's not dismiss the value of a university degree as a filter, since it appears from a high level view that a university degree could serve to make a police officer 1/5th as likely to kill a citizen compared to a diploma. Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier, related to crime statistics or otherwise, or will you just continue to say "the police should train their people", not hold them to account for not training their people, and also excuse them for dropping educational requirements that served in lieu of that training?
- augment003 3y ago
  So, you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Even if your premises were correct, it wouldn’t be worth trying to debate that further. Hint: They aren’t. Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees, and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees. It isn’t what you think. Also, you might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US, and inform yourself of the differences between Canadian gun culture and the US.
  - nawgz 3y ago
    > You might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US Canadian police are also quite racist, but if you're arguing that "less educated American cops are more racist", that tracks pretty nicely with "please don't accept less educated cops" > you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Do you have a different explanation? > Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees According to [0], the breakdown of US officer max education of no college/college diploma/undergrad/grad is: * 49/20/25/5 > and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees And, according to [1], for Canadian officers, it's: * 19/51/29/1.6 Quite a disparity. Especially when you consider sources like [2][3], which argue that: > "Studies have found that a small proportion of police officers – about 5% – produce most citizen complaints, and officers with a two-year degree are about half as likely to be in the high-rate complaint group" Overall, I believe there's lots of evidence suggesting more educated police are better police and citizens, and none suggesting the opposite - that less educated police are better. Across the board, Canadian police are significantly better educated, with the exception of less Graduated degrees. Across the board, Canadian police are less deadly to their citizens. Not a coincidence - go ahead and say some more stupid shit though. [0]: https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education [1]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14146-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article... [2]: https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should-have-college-degrees-140523 https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should... Source of the quote [3]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235210000048 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... Source of the info behind the quote, paywalled

jpadkins 3y ago

Compare Canada to Vermont, NH, Wisconsin, Montana and Idaho and see if your difference still holds. USA is a big place, with very different cultures and outcomes. Once you compare Canada to states that are culturally like Canada, your university hypothesis doesn't look to be correct. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/police-killings-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/police-kill...

nawgz 3y ago
Can you provide more sources that show Police education by state? While I don't disagree with the premise you are suggesting in and of itself, the link you've provided is entirely insufficient to make the calculations about police education and per capita police violence rate I found [0], which in Appendix F has a state-by-state breakdown for only some states. Cross referencing it with your data source is useless, all the top states for per-capita police killings have their data omitted from that table. [0]: https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/PF-Report-Policing-Around-the-Nation_10-2017_Final.pdf https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10...