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One thing sustainability, fashion and denim: we could start by not artificially preusing it. Also: is it me or about 20 years ago a pair of jeans lasted way lo

One thing sustainability, fashion and denim: we could start by not artificially preusing it. Also: is it me or about 20 years ago a pair of jeans lasted way longer than they currently do? Maybe thinner materials were introduced for softness?

jabl 3y ago
Current denim fabrics typically contain some 5% elastane, which gives a bit of strechiness, but doesn't last that long.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Stretchy jeans make me angry. Stretchy jeans for men make me furious.
  - s5300 3y ago
    Why does the free market and comfortable clothing options make you furious?
    - harimau777 3y ago
      For me it's because good quality clothing has become prohibitively expensive. The market has polarized into cheap low quality clothing and ultra expensive high end clothing.
      - FalconSensei 3y ago
        > Stretchy jeans for men make me furious. If it's about being quality, why only for men though?
        hinkley 3y ago
        > If it's about being quality, why only for men though? That's not what I said. While what you think I said is not a good look, neither is a white man trying to dictate what women wear. The elastic jeans thing is a ship that sailed a long time ago. Also if you’ve ever shopped with women, the amount of effort that goes into finding a pair that fit at all is appalling. Elastic gives you a fudge factor to buy pants that don’t actually fit but do.
      - s5300 3y ago
        Hmm… In my experience, good quality clothing can be found near unfathomably cheap (in the U.S. atleast) at estate sales in/around historically middle-upper class neighborhoods of cities. Or rich zip codes in general. It’s even better if you’re a bit smaller than average or in good physical shape - you can simply buy larger articles made of quality materials & self-tailor or pay a bit to have them fitted to your body. You may miss some small QoL improvements & gimmicks modern day clothing can have, like recessed pockets with near invisible zippers or tucked away phone holders, but those can also be added by anybody who’s decent at handiwork. Building your own wardrobe is fairly easy this way IMO - I don’t think I could say the same for supplying an entire family though.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Another way to get comfy clothes is to buy the right size.
uxp100 3y ago
In men’s jeans I’d say non-cotton materials are much more common now. I’m not sure if they wear out faster, but they don’t feel very comfortable on my body compared to a normal pair of jeans once broken in. I’m not sure how denim weight (thinness) in a typical pair of jeans has changed in the past 20 years, but that is sort of a double edged sword. You may think, ah these will wear longer, and they will in most cases, but they’re also warmer. Heavyweight denim can be pretty sweaty. I fabric “normal” jeans without elastane or polyester are pretty easy to find if you pay attention, they have to say their material on the tag.
jerlam 3y ago
Jeans also started getting skinnier/slimmer 20 years ago, and that trend demanded thinner and stretchier fabrics. Thick, baggy work jeans are no doubt more durable but not fashionable.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Jeans went skinny in the eighties but not to the extent now. I never followed fashion trends, but as an amateur cyclist my thighs simply would not fit in a pair of 501’s. I was the first kid anywhere in my social circle or school to wear 550’s, a full year before anyone else discovered baggy pants. Painful clothing is fucking bullshit.
- nabilhat 3y ago
  It's actually become hard to find proper work jeans with no synthetic content now, even the baggy stuff where fit isn't so important. All of Duluth's stuff is part spandex or polyester now. Most Carhartt contains spandex or polyester, always check if it's important. Even if it's only a few percent, it's going to make cancer fumes if you're doing hot work. Fabric manufacturers trending towards thinner and stretchier fabrics is primarily driven by production factors. Most dramatically, cutting the fabric. Stretchy fabrics are more accommodating to lay out flat for cutting, and thinner fabrics increase layer count in cut stacks [0]. Cutting thick stacks like this isn't remotely consistent, and why different instances of the same size garmet often vary in fit and size. Stretchy fabrics can be made with less precision and still "fit", reducing quality constraints to allow cheaper methods. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE
hinkley 3y ago
About ten years ago was the first time I owned a pair of jeans that I was cold in. Unfortunately they were Patagonia, which makes no goddamn sense. And yet here we are. Recently they flip flopped and Patagonia has the heaviest jeans I’ve ever seen. To rival Carhart. But they’re also a weird blend of cellulose derived fiber and recycled plastic. Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent.
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  > Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent. Exactly. In the end, it ends up as micro-plastics in the water
Groxx 3y ago
Most are dramatically thinner and more comfortable now (slight stretch, more tolerant of more temperatures, significantly softer and more flexible, etc). They've become daily normal-comfort normal-fashion wear rather than work wear. Of course they aren't as durable on average - it's a completely different material at this point, sold for a different purpose. Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name. I've got to believe one of the most commonly available jeans in the US are the Kirland ones, and they're just plain 100% cotton denim. Mid-weight, 14.5oz, but plenty durable.
jfengel 3y ago
True denim is deeply uncomfortable when it's brand new. Anybody 50 or older will remember having to break in stiff pants that left blue marks on your thighs. Pre-washed jeans are a lot more comfortable on the first day. These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers. And I get the impression that many aren't even really broken in; the color patterns are woven into them to mimic that look. Now, literally pre-ripped pants... that I'll admit seems like a real waste. I can offer no defense for that.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers Definitely not so. A basic pair of Kirkland 14.5oz denim jeans from Costco ($13.99!) are still 100% cotton. Dad jeans though they may be, they are my favorite jeans nowadays. For one, they still include enough belt loops, something that many other manufacturers (cough Levi cough) have been skimping on.

jabl 3y ago

Current denim fabrics typically contain some 5% elastane, which gives a bit of strechiness, but doesn't last that long.

hinkley 3y ago
Stretchy jeans make me angry. Stretchy jeans for men make me furious.
- s5300 3y ago
  Why does the free market and comfortable clothing options make you furious?
  - harimau777 3y ago
    For me it's because good quality clothing has become prohibitively expensive. The market has polarized into cheap low quality clothing and ultra expensive high end clothing.
    - FalconSensei 3y ago
      > Stretchy jeans for men make me furious. If it's about being quality, why only for men though?
      - hinkley 3y ago
        > If it's about being quality, why only for men though? That's not what I said. While what you think I said is not a good look, neither is a white man trying to dictate what women wear. The elastic jeans thing is a ship that sailed a long time ago. Also if you’ve ever shopped with women, the amount of effort that goes into finding a pair that fit at all is appalling. Elastic gives you a fudge factor to buy pants that don’t actually fit but do.
    - s5300 3y ago
      Hmm… In my experience, good quality clothing can be found near unfathomably cheap (in the U.S. atleast) at estate sales in/around historically middle-upper class neighborhoods of cities. Or rich zip codes in general. It’s even better if you’re a bit smaller than average or in good physical shape - you can simply buy larger articles made of quality materials & self-tailor or pay a bit to have them fitted to your body. You may miss some small QoL improvements & gimmicks modern day clothing can have, like recessed pockets with near invisible zippers or tucked away phone holders, but those can also be added by anybody who’s decent at handiwork. Building your own wardrobe is fairly easy this way IMO - I don’t think I could say the same for supplying an entire family though.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Another way to get comfy clothes is to buy the right size.

uxp100 3y ago

In men’s jeans I’d say non-cotton materials are much more common now. I’m not sure if they wear out faster, but they don’t feel very comfortable on my body compared to a normal pair of jeans once broken in. I’m not sure how denim weight (thinness) in a typical pair of jeans has changed in the past 20 years, but that is sort of a double edged sword. You may think, ah these will wear longer, and they will in most cases, but they’re also warmer. Heavyweight denim can be pretty sweaty. I fabric “normal” jeans without elastane or polyester are pretty easy to find if you pay attention, they have to say their material on the tag.

jerlam 3y ago

Jeans also started getting skinnier/slimmer 20 years ago, and that trend demanded thinner and stretchier fabrics. Thick, baggy work jeans are no doubt more durable but not fashionable.

hinkley 3y ago
Jeans went skinny in the eighties but not to the extent now. I never followed fashion trends, but as an amateur cyclist my thighs simply would not fit in a pair of 501’s. I was the first kid anywhere in my social circle or school to wear 550’s, a full year before anyone else discovered baggy pants. Painful clothing is fucking bullshit.
nabilhat 3y ago
It's actually become hard to find proper work jeans with no synthetic content now, even the baggy stuff where fit isn't so important. All of Duluth's stuff is part spandex or polyester now. Most Carhartt contains spandex or polyester, always check if it's important. Even if it's only a few percent, it's going to make cancer fumes if you're doing hot work. Fabric manufacturers trending towards thinner and stretchier fabrics is primarily driven by production factors. Most dramatically, cutting the fabric. Stretchy fabrics are more accommodating to lay out flat for cutting, and thinner fabrics increase layer count in cut stacks [0]. Cutting thick stacks like this isn't remotely consistent, and why different instances of the same size garmet often vary in fit and size. Stretchy fabrics can be made with less precision and still "fit", reducing quality constraints to allow cheaper methods. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE

hinkley 3y ago

About ten years ago was the first time I owned a pair of jeans that I was cold in. Unfortunately they were Patagonia, which makes no goddamn sense. And yet here we are. Recently they flip flopped and Patagonia has the heaviest jeans I’ve ever seen. To rival Carhart. But they’re also a weird blend of cellulose derived fiber and recycled plastic. Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent.

FalconSensei 3y ago
> Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent. Exactly. In the end, it ends up as micro-plastics in the water

Groxx 3y ago

Most are dramatically thinner and more comfortable now (slight stretch, more tolerant of more temperatures, significantly softer and more flexible, etc). They've become daily normal-comfort normal-fashion wear rather than work wear. Of course they aren't as durable on average - it's a completely different material at this point, sold for a different purpose. Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name.

rootusrootus 3y ago
> Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name. I've got to believe one of the most commonly available jeans in the US are the Kirland ones, and they're just plain 100% cotton denim. Mid-weight, 14.5oz, but plenty durable.

jfengel 3y ago

True denim is deeply uncomfortable when it's brand new. Anybody 50 or older will remember having to break in stiff pants that left blue marks on your thighs. Pre-washed jeans are a lot more comfortable on the first day. These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers. And I get the impression that many aren't even really broken in; the color patterns are woven into them to mimic that look. Now, literally pre-ripped pants... that I'll admit seems like a real waste. I can offer no defense for that.

rootusrootus 3y ago
> These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers Definitely not so. A basic pair of Kirkland 14.5oz denim jeans from Costco ($13.99!) are still 100% cotton. Dad jeans though they may be, they are my favorite jeans nowadays. For one, they still include enough belt loops, something that many other manufacturers (cough Levi cough) have been skimping on.