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Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-education-requirement-to-becom
by version_five 3y ago
Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-education-requirement-to-become-police-officers https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-edu...
I wonder if it's coincidence or the start of a trend back to sanity about job qualifications. Ironically, by becoming almost ubiquitous, university education also becomes irrelevant.
- flavius29663 3y agoAKA: If everyone is super, then nobody is
- kevviiinn 3y ago[flagged]
- coding123 3y agoHumanity is obviously a strong-link system.
- augment003 3y agoI think the implication is that a college degree no longer represents progress.
- kevviiinn 3y agoDid it ever represent progress? What I was saying is that the increased baseline of education for the populace is progress, not that a degree represents progress itself
- leetcrew 3y agounironically yes? if a job "requires" a BA/BS, but realistically could be done by the median highschool graduate, that's four years off the person's life for no real reason. of course, there are other benefits of higher education. but credential creep itself is a signal of waste, not progress.
- johngladtj 3y agoWhen those standards cost resources to acquire and maintain without providing a return? Yes, absolutely that's harmful for humanity in general
- kevviiinn 3y agoThe return is a more educated populace, what's harmful for humanity in general is thinking about everything in monetary terms
- uejfiweun 3y agoAstounding to me how deep that movie was for a kids movie, how DIFFERENT it is from the types of morals and values that are pushed in modern films, and how well it holds up today.
- jl6 3y agoTen years later, we learned that if everything is awesome, nothing is awesome.
- kevviiinn 3y agoPolice should definitely be more highly educated, we see the result of them not being so in the US
- KMag 3y agoI strongly suspect the issues you're referring to are much more an issue with attitude and mindset, rather than directly with education. I think there are probably much more efficient ways to adjust attitude and mindset than broad-based college education. I'm glad I got a broad-based education. It was definitely the right thing for me, but I think it's a hammer being applied to too many problems that aren't roughly nail-shaped.
- gtop3 3y agoI think a college education is a great screening tool for determining levels of conscientiousness, ability to communicate, and ability to follow directions. All great things. My worst interactions with police officers all involved individuals that were low on these skills.
- giantg2 3y agoA lot of that can go out the window when they are placed in the position of power (rather than the professor) and are surrounded by existing officers. If I remember right, there are some studies about police group dynamics as a factor in the type and severity of force used (group size was positively correlated with level of force).
- version_five 3y agoIt's not clear to me that a bunch of psychology grads would naturally be better cops. If anything, police forces would be better investing in more internal training and apprenticeship that's actually related to policing.
- kevviiinn 3y agoNobody said anything about what kind of degree let alone psychology Not only does a criminal justice degree already exist but we could even introduce a new BA degree in policing with the kind of training that would result in an improved police force
- nawgz 3y agoI don't think there's anything sane about the Police reducing their job requirements when we see how ripe for abuse the position is and how unstable it has become in the US based on similar reductions. I also don't really understand how university education is "almost ubiquitous"; I see that the prevalence of Bachelor's degrees amongst adults is under 40%. Is the claim that the demographic of 21-32 would have a percentage like 70% or what?
- coding123 3y ago[flagged]
- hnuser0000 3y ago"yeah yeah yeah drop the college requirements for everyone", who is saying this?
- coding123 3y agoIt's like most of the comments on the page you're looking at.
- ModernMech 3y agoNeither of those things are being said here. You're just amusing yourself.
- augment003 3y agoCollege degrees don’t seem to have done anything to make the police less abusive. Why waste money on them when we could instead give police better police training and resources?
- bfeynman 3y agoVery idealistic to think that money would be reallocated to give police better training and resources, unless you mean military grade equipment for responding to domestic disputes. One can dream though...
- photochemsyn 3y agoI'd prefer police officers with EMT (and preferably paramedic) training to those with four-year sociology degrees. Knowledge of DNA and computer forensic methods and necessities, though, would probably improve their chances of getting promoted, as would legal training. However, those skills could easily be learned at two-year community college progams. All in all, I think this kind of focus would lead to a more professional police force.
- Arainach 3y agoI disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that is hiring officers who understand the system and want to improve and protect rather than a jobs system for those who want to exercise power over others.
- sandworm101 3y ago>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and violent justice is baked into American culture as much as guns and alcohol. >>Part of that is education. I agree, but it isn't the people in the system that need an education. It is the voting public outside who need the better understanding.
- txru 3y agoI think a few things happened in 2020 that show that at least some of the general public are unhappy and want changes...
- 3y ago
- metalspot 3y agoif a job has specific knowledge and skills requirements then it needs to have an objective test that people pass to be able to do the job. that is the only way to eliminate the systemic discrimination that the university system and degree requirements propagate. almost all serious jobs already have objective skills tests and licensing requirements for employment: doctors, lawyers, financial services, heavy equipment operators, etc, etc, etc. adding degree requirements on top of those licensing requirements cannot possibly add any additional benefit but it is obviously discriminatory against many marginalized groups.
- sokoloff 3y agoI'm 100% on-board with requiring an actual med school degree for my doctor rather than a skills-based test.
- BeFlatXIII 3y agoHow would a degree be a stronger signal of competency than a standardized skills-based test?
- sokoloff 3y agoGP seemed to be suggesting replacing the degree requirement with a skills-based test. For doctors, I'm perfectly comfortable requiring both and do not accept the replacement of a degree with a skills-based test.
- cjdoc29 3y agoHard agree, I'd rather not leetcode-ify* the health system. Nor do I want to see swaths of businesses dedicated to cracking the medical leetcode interview. *because it really feels as if some companies translate leetcode skills to actual skills
- kaitai 3y agoI find this to be a slightly weird argument. Med school degrees do have varying levels of quality. Moreover, in the US, you cannot be licensed without residency -- residency is practicing under supervision, essentially a skills-based set of active tests. Then after the residency program many physicians go for board certification, which is additional study and tests (run by a professional cabal that makes a ton of money off of questions about beaver fever, for instance). Well, anyhow, you already do require skills-based assessment if you are seeing licensed physicians in the US. They don't let ppl practice with only book learning.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- PakG1 3y agoI don't need police to be highly educated necessarily. I do need police to be psychologically balanced and show calm restraint. Is there a way we can put that in the job requirements and use it as hiring criteria?
- version_five 3y agoI'd say that's part initial screening, part training, and part willingness to fire people that turn out to be unsuitable. All of that is helped by having access to a broader candidate pool, such as by not imposing arbitrary education requirements. Something related that's often discussed in law enforcement and military is the idea of being able to hire directly into some upper specialist positions without the person having to rise through the ranks. This is sort of the opposite, admitting that some senior positions do not need an arbitrary field experience requirement. In both cases, it's about better matching the requirements and subsequent training and career progression to what's actually needed for the job. This kind of rationalization is the upside of a tight labor market.
- ngngngng 3y agoHave you ever had interactions with police? Did you find them psychologically balanced?
- ceejayoz 3y agoThe answer to this may vary heavily by country, local jurisdiction, and certain demographic characteristics of the person interacting with police.
- dghlsakjg 3y agoI don't need police to have a 4-year degree (or a 2-year degree), but I would like them to be highly educated and trained.
- mkoubaa 3y agoSystematically, I think the answer is no. Whether or not this is a encouraging or discouraging answer depends on the extent to which you expect systems to solve human problems.
- whitemary 3y agoIt's a trend towards lower wages. That's all.
- mkoubaa 3y agoLower wages without crippling student loans is a net positive for most people
- ok123456 3y agoIt's Goodhart's law in action. If having a four year degree becomes just a checkbox, there will be easier and easier ways of getting that checkbox. There will be rent-seeking entities that will facilitate this like degree mills and dubious online programs. It no longer becomes a qualification that the person has gained any skills, but only that they were able to finance paying tens of thousands of dollars to participate in a few discussion threads. It was only a matter of time for people to realise that requiring degrees for jobs that don't really need them is just cargo-culting.
- Taikonerd 3y agoI'm worried that the same logic might cut the other way: "the easier it is to get that piece of paper, the worse you look for not getting it."
- SoftTalker 3y agoIt's not just degree mills. It's mainstream colleges and universities. They are all staring a demographic "enrollment cliff" in the face and are having to drop admissions standards to keep their enrollment numbers up. Academic requirements are going by the wayside; if you can't complete an assignment, you'll be given more time, or an alternative. Nobody fails anymore unless they just absolutely don't show up, schools can't afford to lose students.
- chongli 3y agoNot all. I definitely believe large numbers of liberal arts schools are having problems. But my school (University of Waterloo) has only seen dramatic surges in enrolment over the past 5 years. They're putting up new buildings like crazy just to accommodate all of them! And we're not talking sports centres or rec complexes, we're talking about big lecture halls and buildings full of classrooms and study spaces!
- version_five 3y agoI don't know Waterloo's situation but I know that money for new buildings is largely decoupled from need for capacity and is mainly tied to government make-work projects. I remember during the 2008 "economic action plan" universities got all kinds of buildings. It was entirely because the government was giving free money away to stimulate growth.
- taylodl 3y agoSoooo...education beyond the 3rd grade is irrelevant? I know I'm being snarky, but c'mon man! It wasn't that long ago the same could be said (and was said) for education past the 3rd grade, then the discussion moved to education past the 8th grade, and now it's moved to education past the 12th grade. It's just a rehash of the same, tired argument justifying a poorly-educated populace which makes for a poorly-educated electorate, which tends to be more susceptible to populism.
- catiopatio 3y agoThis is a false equivalency. The demand for higher education has outstripped the supply of students capable of making real use of it, and so standards have been lowered. The value of the education provided — and the value of the degree received — has dropped precipitously. Up until the 50s/60s, education past the 12 grade was the exception, not the rule. A degree was valuable because not everyone had the capacity to attain it.
- taylodl 3y agoI’m just going to say it - the statement “ The demand for higher education has outstripped the supply of students capable of making real use of it” is an extremely ignorant and short-sighted view of education. I expect better from the folks on HN.
- catiopatio 3y ago“Harrumph! You’re ignorant!” says nothing at all. What am I ignorant of? How am I wrong?