4 ms·

I mean, it can definitely still look like bribery. In business relationships we all know that inviting a potential client out to dinner, paid for by the vendor

I mean, it can definitely still look like bribery. In business relationships we all know that inviting a potential client out to dinner, paid for by the vendor, creates at least the possible impression of impropriety unless the amount spent is relatively modest. Doing the same for, say, the government inspector from your industry’s regulatory body… looks even worse. If the vendor has a sponsorship arrangement with a sports team that means they already have access to a corporate box, that doesn’t change the fact that the hospitality offer looks… dubious. The nature of your ownership/rental of the assets involved has no bearing on this. The nature of how it affects your power relationship with the recipient is what matters. The standard - especially when it comes to dealing with government employees - is ‘avoid even the appearance of impropriety’, right? Or at least I certainly thought it was until reading about the Clarence Thomas situation. Apparently there are different rules for billionaires.

dclowd9901 4y ago
Right. What makes it look like bribery isn’t the transaction. It’s the nature of the relationship itself. Is there a great earnings imbalance? Is there ever a way for the friend to treat you in kind? Are you and this friend close friends? I wouldn’t think twice about making the trip to a summer house one of my good friends rented. I might offer to kick some money over, but it wouldn’t feel awkward or obligated. Just want to show my appreciation. If this is someone I don’t particularly like, it changes the whole exchange. Why am I going? Why do they want me to go? With the change of the type of relationship, none of it is kosher.
metalspot 4y ago
> avoid even the appearance of impropriety the real world standard is don't do anything that knowingly or intentionally violates the law or your employers policies. anyone can falsely claim that what you are doing is wrong but as long as it doesn't break employer policy or law then they are wrong. in the corporate world it would be suicidal to "avoid the appearance of impropriety" because your competitors will slaughter you while they are following the letter of the law.
- jameshart 4y ago
  Most (serious) employers’ code of conduct policies are ‘don’t do anything that risks the appearance of impropriety* * without talking to legal first’ So I take your point. But the FCPA and rules around federal government gift-giving mean that in practice companies are generally cautious about this sort of thing.
  - metalspot 4y ago
    > companies are generally cautious about this sort of thing yeah, they hire lobbyists to do it for them so they don't have culpability, but you are right.
ilyt 4y ago
In business relations I treat is basically as payment for your time to listen to them, assuming it is something reasonable. Over that, well, I have no respect for the sales professional that does that so I will feel absolutely fine not giving them business regardless on how much they spend on bribery.
- jameshart 4y ago
  Which creates a conflict when you are already being paid for your time by the employer whose custom is being sought. So I’m not sure that is an ethical blank check on vendor gifts.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    I mean, only if you can't help yourself and look at the vendor favourably after. If you can't stop yourself from doing that then sure

dclowd9901 4y ago

Right. What makes it look like bribery isn’t the transaction. It’s the nature of the relationship itself. Is there a great earnings imbalance? Is there ever a way for the friend to treat you in kind? Are you and this friend close friends? I wouldn’t think twice about making the trip to a summer house one of my good friends rented. I might offer to kick some money over, but it wouldn’t feel awkward or obligated. Just want to show my appreciation. If this is someone I don’t particularly like, it changes the whole exchange. Why am I going? Why do they want me to go? With the change of the type of relationship, none of it is kosher.

metalspot 4y ago

> avoid even the appearance of impropriety the real world standard is don't do anything that knowingly or intentionally violates the law or your employers policies. anyone can falsely claim that what you are doing is wrong but as long as it doesn't break employer policy or law then they are wrong. in the corporate world it would be suicidal to "avoid the appearance of impropriety" because your competitors will slaughter you while they are following the letter of the law.

jameshart 4y ago
Most (serious) employers’ code of conduct policies are ‘don’t do anything that risks the appearance of impropriety* * without talking to legal first’ So I take your point. But the FCPA and rules around federal government gift-giving mean that in practice companies are generally cautious about this sort of thing.
- metalspot 4y ago
  > companies are generally cautious about this sort of thing yeah, they hire lobbyists to do it for them so they don't have culpability, but you are right.

ilyt 4y ago

In business relations I treat is basically as payment for your time to listen to them, assuming it is something reasonable. Over that, well, I have no respect for the sales professional that does that so I will feel absolutely fine not giving them business regardless on how much they spend on bribery.

jameshart 4y ago
Which creates a conflict when you are already being paid for your time by the employer whose custom is being sought. So I’m not sure that is an ethical blank check on vendor gifts.
- ilyt 4y ago
  I mean, only if you can't help yourself and look at the vendor favourably after. If you can't stop yourself from doing that then sure