4 ms·

Rust-ified Windows will still have the fundamental exploitable flaw of Windows - the ability to download binaries from anywhere and give them Admin privs

leftyspook 3y ago
I think this question was posed more at locked-down platforms like consoles.
- techwiz137 3y ago
  Not just. But the ability to run custom code. Such as an Android phone in the future, which is running some rust-hardened kernel and has a locked down bootloader. All of this will become e-waste without the ability to run unsigned code. And not only, by allowing custom code, which some do not allow, the usefulness or even purpose of the device can be extended or altered. I dont' want to throw away a perfectly usable device just because the company made it obsolete.
pjmlp 3y ago
Which is why if you watch the talk where this was announced, Windows is in the process of requiring signed binaries, and two admin levels like on macOS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE
- oblio 3y ago
  It's an hour long video, got a timestamp?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It has chapters. Check "Windows 11 Security", "App Isolation", "Sandbox", "Standard User", "Pluton". Or skim the presentation slides, https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%20Weston%20-%20Windows%2011%20Security%20by-default%20-%20Bluehat%20IL%202023.pdf https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%...
    - revelio 3y ago
      It's irrelevant. They've been trying to do those things for years but their ability to execute is completely gone. Their efforts to improve things just make stuff worse. To name just a few examples: they want all code to be signed but Windows code signing certs are more expensive than the Apple developer programme membership, much harder to obtain, the rules actually make it "impossible" in some cases like if your country issues ID cards without an address on them, they're now forcing mandatory HSMs and if your CA decides to change your subject name you're just SOL because only Windows 11 anticipates that problem but Microsoft can't be bothered maintaining Windows 10 anymore so their solution was never backported. Yet, the Windows 11 security hardware requirements mean many people won't upgrade. So whilst building a theoretical strategy around sandboxing apps, they aren't even able to get the basics right. If the people making these decisions were actually writing Windows apps themselves, they might realize this and Microsoft would be able to get its teams marching in the same direction but there's not much sign of that from the outside. Compare to how Apple does it: they run their own code signing CA, assign stable arbitrary identifiers to companies and people, and still manage to sell these certs for less than a Windows certificate whilst also throwing a couple of support incidents into the mix too, something you can't even get from Microsoft at all as far as I can see (and I've tried!).
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        It is going to be relevant after 2025, regardless. By the way, some of this stuff is already on Window 11 Previews and can be enabled. Even if they botch this, like it happened to UWP, the alternative will be moving everything to Azure OS with thin clients, so one way or the other, it will happen.
        revelio 3y ago
        I imagine lots of users will just run Win10 unsupported at that point. I'd be happy if we could assume it vanishes at that point but seems unlikely. The issue is that a lot of their security strategy is inherited from UWP. So it's already botched.
      - 3y ago
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Windows honestly needs this. Problem is "admin access" isn't something that should be a simple button click because then every app requests it and then every user just hits OK because that's just the only way to use Windows. MacOS has it right where you have to reboot in to recovery mode to turn of SIP which is difficult enough that normal apps don't ask users to do this, but power users will have no problem.
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
How is that any different from Linux or MacOS where you can just wget something and then run it with sudo?
babypuncher 3y ago
This is a fundamental flaw of nearly every OS, because users need to be able to run software on their computers. That doesn't mean we should just ignore security elsewhere. Many users know not to trust mysterious executables from the internet, but don't expect a PDF or font file to be able to infect their machine. I think being able to trust that non-executable files like these won't compromise your system could be a big deal.

leftyspook 3y ago

I think this question was posed more at locked-down platforms like consoles.

techwiz137 3y ago
Not just. But the ability to run custom code. Such as an Android phone in the future, which is running some rust-hardened kernel and has a locked down bootloader. All of this will become e-waste without the ability to run unsigned code. And not only, by allowing custom code, which some do not allow, the usefulness or even purpose of the device can be extended or altered. I dont' want to throw away a perfectly usable device just because the company made it obsolete.

pjmlp 3y ago

Which is why if you watch the talk where this was announced, Windows is in the process of requiring signed binaries, and two admin levels like on macOS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE

oblio 3y ago
It's an hour long video, got a timestamp?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  It has chapters. Check "Windows 11 Security", "App Isolation", "Sandbox", "Standard User", "Pluton". Or skim the presentation slides, https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%20Weston%20-%20Windows%2011%20Security%20by-default%20-%20Bluehat%20IL%202023.pdf https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%...
  - revelio 3y ago
    It's irrelevant. They've been trying to do those things for years but their ability to execute is completely gone. Their efforts to improve things just make stuff worse. To name just a few examples: they want all code to be signed but Windows code signing certs are more expensive than the Apple developer programme membership, much harder to obtain, the rules actually make it "impossible" in some cases like if your country issues ID cards without an address on them, they're now forcing mandatory HSMs and if your CA decides to change your subject name you're just SOL because only Windows 11 anticipates that problem but Microsoft can't be bothered maintaining Windows 10 anymore so their solution was never backported. Yet, the Windows 11 security hardware requirements mean many people won't upgrade. So whilst building a theoretical strategy around sandboxing apps, they aren't even able to get the basics right. If the people making these decisions were actually writing Windows apps themselves, they might realize this and Microsoft would be able to get its teams marching in the same direction but there's not much sign of that from the outside. Compare to how Apple does it: they run their own code signing CA, assign stable arbitrary identifiers to companies and people, and still manage to sell these certs for less than a Windows certificate whilst also throwing a couple of support incidents into the mix too, something you can't even get from Microsoft at all as far as I can see (and I've tried!).
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It is going to be relevant after 2025, regardless. By the way, some of this stuff is already on Window 11 Previews and can be enabled. Even if they botch this, like it happened to UWP, the alternative will be moving everything to Azure OS with thin clients, so one way or the other, it will happen.
      - revelio 3y ago
        I imagine lots of users will just run Win10 unsupported at that point. I'd be happy if we could assume it vanishes at that point but seems unlikely. The issue is that a lot of their security strategy is inherited from UWP. So it's already botched.
    - 3y ago
Gigachad 3y ago
Windows honestly needs this. Problem is "admin access" isn't something that should be a simple button click because then every app requests it and then every user just hits OK because that's just the only way to use Windows. MacOS has it right where you have to reboot in to recovery mode to turn of SIP which is difficult enough that normal apps don't ask users to do this, but power users will have no problem.

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

How is that any different from Linux or MacOS where you can just wget something and then run it with sudo?

babypuncher 3y ago

This is a fundamental flaw of nearly every OS, because users need to be able to run software on their computers. That doesn't mean we should just ignore security elsewhere. Many users know not to trust mysterious executables from the internet, but don't expect a PDF or font file to be able to infect their machine. I think being able to trust that non-executable files like these won't compromise your system could be a big deal.