7 ms·

I know this may seem an odd question, but what happens in a post rust world, when you NEED to exploit a system? Such as say in 20 years when you want to be abl

I know this may seem an odd question, but what happens in a post rust world, when you NEED to exploit a system? Such as say in 20 years when you want to be able to run custom code in a then old console.

phoe-krk 3y ago
Not all exploits are possible because of software bugs: see e.g. https://free60.org/Hacks/Reset_Glitch_Hack/ https://free60.org/Hacks/Reset_Glitch_Hack/
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Yeah these days a lot of hacking has been voltage glitches and other hardware hacking. Rust ensures no kind of safety when the CPU is not operating within it's normal rules.
0zemp2c 3y ago
Rust-ified Windows will still have the fundamental exploitable flaw of Windows - the ability to download binaries from anywhere and give them Admin privs
- leftyspook 3y ago
  I think this question was posed more at locked-down platforms like consoles.
  - techwiz137 3y ago
    Not just. But the ability to run custom code. Such as an Android phone in the future, which is running some rust-hardened kernel and has a locked down bootloader. All of this will become e-waste without the ability to run unsigned code. And not only, by allowing custom code, which some do not allow, the usefulness or even purpose of the device can be extended or altered. I dont' want to throw away a perfectly usable device just because the company made it obsolete.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Which is why if you watch the talk where this was announced, Windows is in the process of requiring signed binaries, and two admin levels like on macOS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE
  - oblio 3y ago
    It's an hour long video, got a timestamp?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It has chapters. Check "Windows 11 Security", "App Isolation", "Sandbox", "Standard User", "Pluton". Or skim the presentation slides, https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%20Weston%20-%20Windows%2011%20Security%20by-default%20-%20Bluehat%20IL%202023.pdf https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%...
      - revelio 3y ago
        It's irrelevant. They've been trying to do those things for years but their ability to execute is completely gone. Their efforts to improve things just make stuff worse. To name just a few examples: they want all code to be signed but Windows code signing certs are more expensive than the Apple developer programme membership, much harder to obtain, the rules actually make it "impossible" in some cases like if your country issues ID cards without an address on them, they're now forcing mandatory HSMs and if your CA decides to change your subject name you're just SOL because only Windows 11 anticipates that problem but Microsoft can't be bothered maintaining Windows 10 anymore so their solution was never backported. Yet, the Windows 11 security hardware requirements mean many people won't upgrade. So whilst building a theoretical strategy around sandboxing apps, they aren't even able to get the basics right. If the people making these decisions were actually writing Windows apps themselves, they might realize this and Microsoft would be able to get its teams marching in the same direction but there's not much sign of that from the outside. Compare to how Apple does it: they run their own code signing CA, assign stable arbitrary identifiers to companies and people, and still manage to sell these certs for less than a Windows certificate whilst also throwing a couple of support incidents into the mix too, something you can't even get from Microsoft at all as far as I can see (and I've tried!).
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  How is that any different from Linux or MacOS where you can just wget something and then run it with sudo?
- babypuncher 3y ago
  This is a fundamental flaw of nearly every OS, because users need to be able to run software on their computers. That doesn't mean we should just ignore security elsewhere. Many users know not to trust mysterious executables from the internet, but don't expect a PDF or font file to be able to infect their machine. I think being able to trust that non-executable files like these won't compromise your system could be a big deal.
speed_spread 3y ago
As long as you have hardware access, you can fuck shit up in ways no software can ever prevent.
- jsheard 3y ago
  Attacking the hardware is always "possible" but can be made unreasonably difficult to pull off in practice, and we've reached that point with game consoles now. The Xbox One and Playstation 4 survived their entire generation without falling to hardware hacks, and the Xbox One didn't get hacked via software either. Microsoft is so confident in their security model that they openly explained how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo
  - babypuncher 3y ago
    The Xbox 360 still lacks any meaningful software hacks and it will be old enough to vote in November.
candiddevmike 3y ago
Rust alone will not save you. Most of the gnarly exploits of late have been logic bugs.
- dcsommer 3y ago
  > Most Citation needed. Log4j comes to mind as a logic bug disaster, but all the data I've seen is that >65% of the high severity bugs come from memory unsafety in most software projects. https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-languages-in-android-13.html https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-language... https://alexgaynor.net/2020/may/27/science-on-memory-unsafety-and-security/ https://alexgaynor.net/2020/may/27/science-on-memory-unsafet...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
rhn_mk1 3y ago
You have to start thinking about it now: don't buy things to which you don't have open access. Lobby the politicians to make this happen if you care. https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ https://www.defectivebydesign.org/
troutpanda 3y ago
Usually those who want to exploit the system and those building the system have very, very different goals in mind
drivebyops 3y ago
Aren’t exploits on assembly reverse engineering?
- muricula 3y ago
  No. In this context reverse engineering is looking at the assembly to understand what it does. Once you understand that, you can figure out how to exploit the code, by, sending a subtly malformed packet which will cause a server to write out of bounds of some array, and corrupt the servers memory. By very carefully corrupting the server's memory the attacker can hijack the server to do whatever they want.
michael1999 3y ago
Attack the hardware: row hammer, jtag, rom swap, ...

phoe-krk 3y ago

Not all exploits are possible because of software bugs: see e.g. https://free60.org/Hacks/Reset_Glitch_Hack/ https://free60.org/Hacks/Reset_Glitch_Hack/

Gigachad 3y ago
Yeah these days a lot of hacking has been voltage glitches and other hardware hacking. Rust ensures no kind of safety when the CPU is not operating within it's normal rules.

0zemp2c 3y ago

Rust-ified Windows will still have the fundamental exploitable flaw of Windows - the ability to download binaries from anywhere and give them Admin privs

leftyspook 3y ago
I think this question was posed more at locked-down platforms like consoles.
- techwiz137 3y ago
  Not just. But the ability to run custom code. Such as an Android phone in the future, which is running some rust-hardened kernel and has a locked down bootloader. All of this will become e-waste without the ability to run unsigned code. And not only, by allowing custom code, which some do not allow, the usefulness or even purpose of the device can be extended or altered. I dont' want to throw away a perfectly usable device just because the company made it obsolete.
pjmlp 3y ago
Which is why if you watch the talk where this was announced, Windows is in the process of requiring signed binaries, and two admin levels like on macOS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE
- oblio 3y ago
  It's an hour long video, got a timestamp?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It has chapters. Check "Windows 11 Security", "App Isolation", "Sandbox", "Standard User", "Pluton". Or skim the presentation slides, https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%20Weston%20-%20Windows%2011%20Security%20by-default%20-%20Bluehat%20IL%202023.pdf https://github.com/dwizzzle/Presentations/blob/master/David%...
    - revelio 3y ago
      It's irrelevant. They've been trying to do those things for years but their ability to execute is completely gone. Their efforts to improve things just make stuff worse. To name just a few examples: they want all code to be signed but Windows code signing certs are more expensive than the Apple developer programme membership, much harder to obtain, the rules actually make it "impossible" in some cases like if your country issues ID cards without an address on them, they're now forcing mandatory HSMs and if your CA decides to change your subject name you're just SOL because only Windows 11 anticipates that problem but Microsoft can't be bothered maintaining Windows 10 anymore so their solution was never backported. Yet, the Windows 11 security hardware requirements mean many people won't upgrade. So whilst building a theoretical strategy around sandboxing apps, they aren't even able to get the basics right. If the people making these decisions were actually writing Windows apps themselves, they might realize this and Microsoft would be able to get its teams marching in the same direction but there's not much sign of that from the outside. Compare to how Apple does it: they run their own code signing CA, assign stable arbitrary identifiers to companies and people, and still manage to sell these certs for less than a Windows certificate whilst also throwing a couple of support incidents into the mix too, something you can't even get from Microsoft at all as far as I can see (and I've tried!).
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
How is that any different from Linux or MacOS where you can just wget something and then run it with sudo?
babypuncher 3y ago
This is a fundamental flaw of nearly every OS, because users need to be able to run software on their computers. That doesn't mean we should just ignore security elsewhere. Many users know not to trust mysterious executables from the internet, but don't expect a PDF or font file to be able to infect their machine. I think being able to trust that non-executable files like these won't compromise your system could be a big deal.

speed_spread 3y ago

As long as you have hardware access, you can fuck shit up in ways no software can ever prevent.

jsheard 3y ago
Attacking the hardware is always "possible" but can be made unreasonably difficult to pull off in practice, and we've reached that point with game consoles now. The Xbox One and Playstation 4 survived their entire generation without falling to hardware hacks, and the Xbox One didn't get hacked via software either. Microsoft is so confident in their security model that they openly explained how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VwtOrwceo
- babypuncher 3y ago
  The Xbox 360 still lacks any meaningful software hacks and it will be old enough to vote in November.

candiddevmike 3y ago

Rust alone will not save you. Most of the gnarly exploits of late have been logic bugs.

dcsommer 3y ago
> Most Citation needed. Log4j comes to mind as a logic bug disaster, but all the data I've seen is that >65% of the high severity bugs come from memory unsafety in most software projects. https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-languages-in-android-13.html https://security.googleblog.com/2022/12/memory-safe-language... https://alexgaynor.net/2020/may/27/science-on-memory-unsafety-and-security/ https://alexgaynor.net/2020/may/27/science-on-memory-unsafet...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

rhn_mk1 3y ago

You have to start thinking about it now: don't buy things to which you don't have open access. Lobby the politicians to make this happen if you care. https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ https://www.defectivebydesign.org/

troutpanda 3y ago

Usually those who want to exploit the system and those building the system have very, very different goals in mind

drivebyops 3y ago

Aren’t exploits on assembly reverse engineering?

muricula 3y ago
No. In this context reverse engineering is looking at the assembly to understand what it does. Once you understand that, you can figure out how to exploit the code, by, sending a subtly malformed packet which will cause a server to write out of bounds of some array, and corrupt the servers memory. By very carefully corrupting the server's memory the attacker can hijack the server to do whatever they want.

michael1999 3y ago

Attack the hardware: row hammer, jtag, rom swap, ...