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Why can't we support and encourage cycling without vilifying cars in these threads? I've seen plenty of places that do both very well, like Spain. Everybody has

• aziaziazi 3y ago
  Where did you see people vilifying cars at the time of your post ?
• Tade0 3y ago
  I think it might be an American thing - at least the polarization part. Over here in Poland some of my friends and relatives switched to scooters(125cc typically) when fuel prices spiked and are largely happy with the result - especially this one guy who used to daily a Nissan Pathfinder. Of course this becomes difficult in winter and inclement weather conditions, but I also see fewer cyclists then. People need to realize that even the Dutch generally have cars and drive. It all works because they thought and fought hard to get to this point.
  • eythian 3y ago
    > People need to realize that even the Dutch generally have cars and drive. It depends a lot where you are. Live in a major city and very few people have cars, they're expensive and spend a lot of time just sitting around taking up space and money. Go to a less dense area and they're a lot more common. Also, pay-by-the-minute or whatever car rentals aren't uncommon for when people need them but don't want to actually own one.
    • Tade0 3y ago
      > It depends a lot where you are. Of course it does because it's like that everywhere in Europe. I wouldn't expect many e.g. Parisians to own cars. My point was that there's a whole spectrum of lifestyles with rational choices behind them and you can't just brush over that with a simplistic solutions like "ban cars".
      • kristofferR 3y ago
        That's one of the biggest strawmens I've ever seen. Nobody is saying that they want to ban cars outright, they want to ban cars in city centers, in order to make them walkable.
• dazc 3y ago
  'Everybody has a car and bicycle...' I'm not sure this is true, but, on the wider point of cars v cycles it comes down to the usual problem of neither not wanting to share the same space. I have lived in Spain, though mainly live in the UK, and in either place I would not feel safe riding a bike (or scooter) on a public road. I should add that car drivers and bike riders can be as bad as each other, it's just that car drivers usually have the upper hand in terms of protection.
  • ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    As a cyclist, I don't have an issue sharing space with other traffic, but I do have an issue with the hyper-aggressive drivers that seek to scare and/or injure cyclists by not giving them enough space when overtaking. There's also the abusive drivers that shout at you and beep their horn at you if they disagree with any choices that you've made such as which road to use. Drivers and riders are hardly comparable in terms of dangerous behaviour and that's without even taking into account any consideration of pollution and environmental destruction (e.g. car parks, lithium mining etc.)
    • ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > There's also the abusive drivers that shout at you and beep their horn at you Yep, happened to me. Also there is a 'compulsive overtaking syndrome' where a driver feels they must overtake the bicycle even if you are exceeding the speed limit on your bicycle. Even if there is not enough space.
      • ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        The technical term for that is MGIF (Must Get In Front). It's especially bizarre when there's queueing traffic just ahead, so they overtake and then you almost immediately filter past them. It seems as though they're not able to look ahead and anticipate their own progress.
        • Tade0 3y ago
• rsynnott 3y ago
  > But there's plenty of occasions when you really need a car. Eh, depends on your needs, really. I've gotten along without one for decades; I keep meaning to learn to drive, but it never rises to the top of the priority list as I just don't really have a use for it.
  • cubefox 3y ago
    Also works for me, though it is not optimal in my more rural area. Big cities should be fine.
    • ghaff 3y ago
      People also just adjust. If you don't drive--or at least can't rent a car easily/don't want to--you just tend not to do activities or go places requiring that you do so. I couldn't get by day-to-day without a car but even if I lived in the city, I'd regularly want to drive one to visit people, do weekend activities, etc.
      • rsynnott 3y ago
        Eh, I find I can get wherever I need on public transport, in general. Now, that said, I'm not regularly going to very rural areas, or anything. I mean, it definitely wouldn't work for everyone, but for me, I can walk or get public transport anywhere I need to go (and this is in Dublin, a city that is... not known for the excellence of its public transport; they'll finish the underground train one day...) Now I'm in my late 30s, I also have the vague superstitious belief that the enforced walking is keeping me alive; if I wasn't doing that I'd be pretty sedentary.
        • ghaff 3y ago
          If I lived in Boston, there's basically no way I'm getting to the mountains, north shore, Cape Cod, western suburbs/exurbs where a lot of people I know live, etc. without a car that I either own, rent, or someone else does. The city itself has a pretty good public transit system and there's even a pretty good commuter rail--but that's designed for coming into the city from suburban train stations with parking lots. So I'd be pretty much limited to the metro itself without a car in some form. Which is fine for some people. They'll just naturally tend to avoid activities that are a pain to do in one way or another.
• pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  > Why can't we support and encourage cycling without vilifying cars in these threads? Because cars pollute the air I breath, car horns constantly stress me, because politicians and city planners will use cars as a justification to develop cities as asphalt wastelands, because pedestrians and bikers are killed daily by unruly car drivers and so on. Plus somehow cars manage to bring out the worst in every person. Road rage is a thing. > Everybody has a car and bicycle (at least one) and uses whatever fits the purpose at the time. I don't have a car. I either bike, walk or use public transportation. I don't even live in an area where public transportation is great. > scooters and motorcycles are often a better compromise Still deadly in accidents and still polluting. The only thing that would make sense is low speed electric scooters, but those dont work well either in suburban sprawls like the US and Canada have.
  • cubefox 3y ago
    One absurd but conventionally normal thing is that cities have to build wider streets just because car drivers will inevitably transform them into parking lots, on both sides, halving their width. Old streets often seem narrow, but they aren't really narrow when they aren't full of parked cars.
    • ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      It would be lovely to see parked cars disappear if autonomous cars become common enough. However, that would also rely on people deciding against car ownership and moving over to a shared vehicle model.
      • pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        Autonomous electric cars solve only some of the problems cars create while exarcebating others. In a world where semiconductors and rare minerals already cause a lot of geopolitical tensions, do you really think it is feasible to migrate most of the world cars to autonomous electric? There is only one solution that solves all of the problems car create and has several other benefits. Rethink the urban and infrastructure development for walkability and shorter travels. We can't avoid it, like it or not.
• smallpipe 3y ago
  They’re naturally opposed in a way. Bike infrastructure is car infrastructure, you need protected cycle paths etc where there’s a lot of cars or they’re going fast. If it wasn’t for cars, the current infrastructure is great for bikes.
  • ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    I can recommend Carlton Reid's "Roads Were Not Built For Cars" book as a history of the early development of modern roads (i.e. tarmac). Many of them were funded by cycling societies before cars became commonplace. Also quite a bit of interesting history of the early cars. https://roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/ https://roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/
• ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > Why can't we support and encourage cycling without vilifying cars in these threads? In many places you have to win back some space from cars to make cycling/scootering/ anything viable. For example in London we have a tonnel, Blackwall tonnel, built in 1890's - basically before cars existed. Its the only way to cross the river in east london for miles. It was open to people, horses, bicycles. When cars became common, it was converted into a road, bicycles are banned. The story of non-car transportation is a story of routes and land being taken away from you. Anyway, now in London they are building Silverstown tonnel near blackwalll tonnel, exclusively for cars. But there is still no way to cross the river on foot. I saw a news article about the old blackwall tonnel being pedestrianised, but then realised it was 1st of April. Also they are building a railway for 100 billion in UK, and the original plan envisioned cycle route along all of it, from london to birmingham. But then budgets were cut and the cycle route was removed to save wopping 0.01% or whatever > Also, taking Spain as an example again, scooters and motorcycles are often a better compromise. I think this is a good point, there is also a wide array of electric non-bicycle mobility solution that fit well onto public transport and trains.
• ghaff 3y ago
  >Why are they always ignored in these threads? Is this an American thing? I don't know but Vespa-type scooters are very uncommon in the US. Motorcycles are less rare but are widely considered (with some justification) to be dangerous as a form of transportation. (It doesn't help that there are some crazy motorcyclists out there though of course many aren't.) May have something to do with the type of road infrastructure and traffic, or just custom, but don't really know.
  • LeanderK 3y ago
    > I don't know but Vespa-type scooters are very uncommon in the US why? They are also quite common in germany for people living in the city and very useful to get around in the city. I personally bike but I see the appeal.
    • ghaff 3y ago
      No idea about the why. Vespas were a bit of thing maybe 20 years or so ago in the US but, while I think I know one person who owns something along those lines, they just aren't very common in my experience. (Maybe because car ownership is higher and it tends to be either/or?)
• Moldoteck 3y ago
  there is one thing I hate more than a car and thats loud motorcycles that ruin everybody's peace
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• Moldoteck 3y ago
  because cars pollute, produce a lot of noise, take a lot of space when not used(so majority of time), infra for them is expensive(roads and parkings) and it should be maintained frequently and bc of them a lot of people die (at least where average speed is >30km/h) I'm fine with electric motorcycles that are speed limited by design and have slower start acceleration by design, this would be really nice
• ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  I think it's mainly a U.S. thing as their cities are designed around personal car usage. That leads to the separation of living spaces and facilities (i.e. the anti-15 minute city) as more roads need to be built to cater for all the traffic which then leads to the distances increasing until a car is needed for almost every journey. Once you have cars dominating as the form of transport, it becomes dangerous to use other vehicles as most drivers will inevitably just be looking out for other cars and not two-wheelers.