7 ms·

Indeed, if we assume cyclists use the tunnel 100 days a year going both ways through it, thats saving each one nearly 60+ hours a year. If each one's time is wo

Indeed, if we assume cyclists use the tunnel 100 days a year going both ways through it, thats saving each one nearly 60+ hours a year. If each one's time is worth $20, that is over a thousand dollars per cyclist per year - it only takes 9k cyclists to make the savings outweigh the costs in five years.

elygre 3y ago
And assuming that this will increase the number of people who choose to bike instead of to drive, you can also add savings for all the remaining drivers who get a slightly easier commute.
- thecopy 3y ago
  And net reduced road maintenance and external costs coming for reduced car usage
- cjrp 3y ago
  And a healthier society (on the whole) as people are encouraged to cycle. Less diabetes, etc.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    And a happier society as it's far more fun to cycle than to drive in traffic
k4rli 3y ago
[flagged]
- patall 3y ago
  The calculation given is probably not right, but every european (and ideally world-wide) infrastructure project will have a cost to benefit analysis. Even if just to decide on which project to build next.
- LudwigNagasena 3y ago
  It sounds very nice and morally fulfilling to denigrate any numerical calculus of welfare; but in the end you still have to deal with monetary budgets that represent limited societal supply of labor and resources. You may try to take a moral high ground and say that people are more important than $X million, but those money also represent potential housing, cancer treatment research, green energy investment, etc that won’t be financed. You cannot get away from measuring value of time and toil of people, at least implicitly. Why not then make it explicit and be mindful of it?
  - goodpoint 3y ago
    > It sounds very nice and morally fulfilling to denigrate any numerical calculus of welfare Many of those "numerical calculus" measure only savings in time, fuel, etc and attribute ZERO value to saving lives, improving quality of life and even improving mental health. Such calculations are not pragmatic, they are highly ideological.
    - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
      Ideologues everywhere use statistics as a pretext for their lies. Water is wet. More breaking news at 11.
      - goodpoint 3y ago
        You are missing the point completely.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Also in an American context “saving money” or other “efficiency gains” anrguments appeal to a broad group of people and can build consensus. You don’t need just one message, you can have different messages for different audiences to sell them on the idea. Also for the GP you shouldn’t call people out for having an email domain listed if you are too fearful to have yours listed. Be nice.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Not everything must be about increasing profits, but being responsible with the public purse to the benefit of all is a worthy goal. Of course, if you do that you quickly find many car-oriented projects shouldn't have been built in the first place. Also: * It is unkind and unhelpful need to make personal attacks based on the poster's national origin or religion. * A Catholicism-oriented email provider doesn't mean they're from the US. For instance, they might live in Ireland, another country with horrifically bad urban design and a lot of Catholic people * Be nice.
  - Macha 3y ago
    > * A Catholicism-oriented email provider doesn't mean they're from the US. For instance, they might live in Ireland, another country with horrifically bad urban design and a lot of Catholic people I'm sure you're aware since you live here, but for the benefit of other HN users, Catholics in Ireland and Catholics as perceived by US media are quite different. US media perceives Catholics as one of the more conservative and devout Christian variants, and my understanding is that even within Catholic institutions the US branches are considered much more conservative than Rome. However, between the decline in the Catholic Church's societal influence and the various abuse scandals that led to that, your median self-reported Catholic in Ireland is much less religiously focused than the imported born-again churches and actual overt religious devotion is much less common in Ireland overall. So even living in Ireland, with the census figures claiming the Catholic share is as high as you mention, I too would assume anyone who is actively and outwardly religious enough to seek out an email provider on that line is American or at least influenced by American religious culture. Add to that that our population of devout Catholics are aging, so are also not the demographic who generally seeks out niche email providers anyway.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      And to top it off, people come from families and may be using the family email server/setup because it's easier/cheaper than switching.
    - CalRobert 3y ago
      Certainly, but my point is that it's still entirely possible they're not in the US. Plenty of Catholics throughout the Americas for one thing. Also if you come to the midlands you'll find a huge number of "Jesus I Trust in You" sacred heart posters all over the damn place. I've been asked if I'm C or P more than I ever expected. Our neighbours told us they were Catholic within literally 10 seconds of meeting us. They tried to suss out what we are by asking where our kids go to school - they fancy themselves clever. But maybe that's what I get for moving to Offaly.
aziaziazi 3y ago
Why only 100d/y while Norwegian works around 190d/y? In my experience people tends to have a “main” commute mode that they only turn away from in exceptional cases. Easier to live with habits that mixing your timetables every other day.
- MagnumOpus 3y ago
  People might use cars or public transport instead of a bike to commute if there is heavy rain or snow. This is an important consideration in Bergen which is notoriously the rainiest city in Europe (it rains more than half the time).
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    So there are places in Europe where it rains more than in UK?
    - wartijn_ 3y ago
      Yes. Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Albania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_precipitation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
      - arethuza 3y ago
        That's averages over the whole countries though - the north and west of the UK (particularly the Scottish Highlands and the Lake District) are a lot wetter than the south-east where London is. Also, "volume of rain" might be misleading because it doesn't give you a feeling for how often it rains. The Highlands in particular can have a light rain that falls for weeks at a time (or at least seems like it if you are in a tent).
        smugma 3y ago
        Most of the Bay Area gets about the same amount of rain as London. The key difference is that in Cupertino/Los Gators/Palo Alto it rains less often but with more intensity.
goodpoint 3y ago
Plus the health benefits of cycling and the ones of not being involved in driving accidents. Plus the saving in car TCO and fuel, plus less road maintenance.

elygre 3y ago

And assuming that this will increase the number of people who choose to bike instead of to drive, you can also add savings for all the remaining drivers who get a slightly easier commute.

thecopy 3y ago
And net reduced road maintenance and external costs coming for reduced car usage
cjrp 3y ago
And a healthier society (on the whole) as people are encouraged to cycle. Less diabetes, etc.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  And a happier society as it's far more fun to cycle than to drive in traffic

k4rli 3y ago

[flagged]

patall 3y ago
The calculation given is probably not right, but every european (and ideally world-wide) infrastructure project will have a cost to benefit analysis. Even if just to decide on which project to build next.
LudwigNagasena 3y ago
It sounds very nice and morally fulfilling to denigrate any numerical calculus of welfare; but in the end you still have to deal with monetary budgets that represent limited societal supply of labor and resources. You may try to take a moral high ground and say that people are more important than $X million, but those money also represent potential housing, cancer treatment research, green energy investment, etc that won’t be financed. You cannot get away from measuring value of time and toil of people, at least implicitly. Why not then make it explicit and be mindful of it?
- goodpoint 3y ago
  > It sounds very nice and morally fulfilling to denigrate any numerical calculus of welfare Many of those "numerical calculus" measure only savings in time, fuel, etc and attribute ZERO value to saving lives, improving quality of life and even improving mental health. Such calculations are not pragmatic, they are highly ideological.
  - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
    Ideologues everywhere use statistics as a pretext for their lies. Water is wet. More breaking news at 11.
    - goodpoint 3y ago
      You are missing the point completely.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Also in an American context “saving money” or other “efficiency gains” anrguments appeal to a broad group of people and can build consensus. You don’t need just one message, you can have different messages for different audiences to sell them on the idea. Also for the GP you shouldn’t call people out for having an email domain listed if you are too fearful to have yours listed. Be nice.
CalRobert 3y ago
Not everything must be about increasing profits, but being responsible with the public purse to the benefit of all is a worthy goal. Of course, if you do that you quickly find many car-oriented projects shouldn't have been built in the first place. Also: * It is unkind and unhelpful need to make personal attacks based on the poster's national origin or religion. * A Catholicism-oriented email provider doesn't mean they're from the US. For instance, they might live in Ireland, another country with horrifically bad urban design and a lot of Catholic people * Be nice.
- Macha 3y ago
  > * A Catholicism-oriented email provider doesn't mean they're from the US. For instance, they might live in Ireland, another country with horrifically bad urban design and a lot of Catholic people I'm sure you're aware since you live here, but for the benefit of other HN users, Catholics in Ireland and Catholics as perceived by US media are quite different. US media perceives Catholics as one of the more conservative and devout Christian variants, and my understanding is that even within Catholic institutions the US branches are considered much more conservative than Rome. However, between the decline in the Catholic Church's societal influence and the various abuse scandals that led to that, your median self-reported Catholic in Ireland is much less religiously focused than the imported born-again churches and actual overt religious devotion is much less common in Ireland overall. So even living in Ireland, with the census figures claiming the Catholic share is as high as you mention, I too would assume anyone who is actively and outwardly religious enough to seek out an email provider on that line is American or at least influenced by American religious culture. Add to that that our population of devout Catholics are aging, so are also not the demographic who generally seeks out niche email providers anyway.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    And to top it off, people come from families and may be using the family email server/setup because it's easier/cheaper than switching.
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    Certainly, but my point is that it's still entirely possible they're not in the US. Plenty of Catholics throughout the Americas for one thing. Also if you come to the midlands you'll find a huge number of "Jesus I Trust in You" sacred heart posters all over the damn place. I've been asked if I'm C or P more than I ever expected. Our neighbours told us they were Catholic within literally 10 seconds of meeting us. They tried to suss out what we are by asking where our kids go to school - they fancy themselves clever. But maybe that's what I get for moving to Offaly.

aziaziazi 3y ago

Why only 100d/y while Norwegian works around 190d/y? In my experience people tends to have a “main” commute mode that they only turn away from in exceptional cases. Easier to live with habits that mixing your timetables every other day.

MagnumOpus 3y ago
People might use cars or public transport instead of a bike to commute if there is heavy rain or snow. This is an important consideration in Bergen which is notoriously the rainiest city in Europe (it rains more than half the time).
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  So there are places in Europe where it rains more than in UK?
  - wartijn_ 3y ago
    Yes. Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Albania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_precipitation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
    - arethuza 3y ago
      That's averages over the whole countries though - the north and west of the UK (particularly the Scottish Highlands and the Lake District) are a lot wetter than the south-east where London is. Also, "volume of rain" might be misleading because it doesn't give you a feeling for how often it rains. The Highlands in particular can have a light rain that falls for weeks at a time (or at least seems like it if you are in a tent).
      - smugma 3y ago
        Most of the Bay Area gets about the same amount of rain as London. The key difference is that in Cupertino/Los Gators/Palo Alto it rains less often but with more intensity.

goodpoint 3y ago

Plus the health benefits of cycling and the ones of not being involved in driving accidents. Plus the saving in car TCO and fuel, plus less road maintenance.