4 ms·

Could the general success of Jewish people as an ethnic group be partly attributable to the Talmud and general tenets of Jewish culture helping adapt the mind t

Could the general success of Jewish people as an ethnic group be partly attributable to the Talmud and general tenets of Jewish culture helping adapt the mind to difficult circumstances and wrestling with complexity?

lukas099 4y ago
I think the accepted view is that persecution and diaspora pushed Jews into industries like finance that lead to wealth accumulation. However, I personally don't think that the persecution would be as severe if Jews did not have such an insular culture, organized around the Torah and tradition. Also, literacy and scholarship is promoted in Jewish culture due to the promotion of reading and debating the Torah and Talmud. This could have helped direct the results of their persecution. Compare the Jewish people to other persecuted peoples such as the gypsies. I am no sociologist, but I think at the very least we can agree that outcomes result from very complex interactions of culture, geography, history, language, religion, etc.
wslh 4y ago
Do you mean successful in many areas such as science, art, or business? Comparing to their population size. Genuinely asking.
- atleastoptimal 4y ago
  Both, though in this case science in particular.
  - wslh 4y ago
    It is obviously impossible to generalize because there is also a lot of diversity in the community. You can see that very visually when you have jewish orthodox people and near them the pride parade. Also, when you see some religious people smoking pot before sabbath... or orthodox women movements. All these seems contradictory. I think the short answer is that there was and is a tradition for education and critical thinking. There is that joke about a jewish mother of a president that feels proud of his other son, which is a doctor. There are some variations [1]. [1] https://aish.com/51475757/ https://aish.com/51475757/
lr4444lr 4y ago
Ashkenazi Jews have a higher IQ by a whole stddev over the general population, regardless of religiosity or socioeconomic factors [0]. It's possible the Talmud played a role in selective reproductive pressures toward this outcome, sure: learned men in Jewish culture tended to be desirable mates. But there are other historical factors at play too. [0] https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jb...
- detourdog 4y ago
  This could easily be survivorship bias. The less driven often stayed behind in the old country to be wiped out.
- yonaguska 4y ago
  > although a recent review concludes that the advantage is slightly less, only half a standard deviation Lynn (2004). From the paper you linked. Most of the studies cited were pretty flawed in implementation iirc. The paper you linked also fails to mention the most probable reason for Jewish success, which imo is the community itself. More specifically, the n-word, nepotism. I have a very Jewish name, and I've experienced preference for it. I think this also presents unique opportunities for access to early, high value education, regardless of socioeconomic status, which definitely skews the IQ results.

lukas099 4y ago

I think the accepted view is that persecution and diaspora pushed Jews into industries like finance that lead to wealth accumulation. However, I personally don't think that the persecution would be as severe if Jews did not have such an insular culture, organized around the Torah and tradition. Also, literacy and scholarship is promoted in Jewish culture due to the promotion of reading and debating the Torah and Talmud. This could have helped direct the results of their persecution. Compare the Jewish people to other persecuted peoples such as the gypsies. I am no sociologist, but I think at the very least we can agree that outcomes result from very complex interactions of culture, geography, history, language, religion, etc.

wslh 4y ago

Do you mean successful in many areas such as science, art, or business? Comparing to their population size. Genuinely asking.

atleastoptimal 4y ago
Both, though in this case science in particular.
- wslh 4y ago
  It is obviously impossible to generalize because there is also a lot of diversity in the community. You can see that very visually when you have jewish orthodox people and near them the pride parade. Also, when you see some religious people smoking pot before sabbath... or orthodox women movements. All these seems contradictory. I think the short answer is that there was and is a tradition for education and critical thinking. There is that joke about a jewish mother of a president that feels proud of his other son, which is a doctor. There are some variations [1]. [1] https://aish.com/51475757/ https://aish.com/51475757/

lr4444lr 4y ago

Ashkenazi Jews have a higher IQ by a whole stddev over the general population, regardless of religiosity or socioeconomic factors [0]. It's possible the Talmud played a role in selective reproductive pressures toward this outcome, sure: learned men in Jewish culture tended to be desirable mates. But there are other historical factors at play too. [0] https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jb...

detourdog 4y ago
This could easily be survivorship bias. The less driven often stayed behind in the old country to be wiped out.
yonaguska 4y ago
> although a recent review concludes that the advantage is slightly less, only half a standard deviation Lynn (2004). From the paper you linked. Most of the studies cited were pretty flawed in implementation iirc. The paper you linked also fails to mention the most probable reason for Jewish success, which imo is the community itself. More specifically, the n-word, nepotism. I have a very Jewish name, and I've experienced preference for it. I think this also presents unique opportunities for access to early, high value education, regardless of socioeconomic status, which definitely skews the IQ results.