3 ms·

You're describing freedom as in anarchy, the parent is describing freedom as in liberty. I am more free and able to use the software I want when the governmen

by Spivak 4y ago

You're describing freedom as in anarchy, the parent is describing freedom as in liberty. I am more free and able to use the software I want when the government forces Apple to unlock their devices even though it makes Apple less free. I am more free to travel when everyone follows the rules of the road even though I give up some autonomy to do so. I am more free to use wireless networks because everyone has to stick to their assigned bands even though I give up my ability to use other bands to do so. I am more free to live and sleep because of noise ordinances even though it means I can't play loud music late at night either. For people who value liberty, freedom means the ability to do the things you actually want to do. Social norms get enforced everywhere, even in the state of nature.

sib 4y ago
Anarchy would be without laws. I am describing liberty. There are people whose work is worth less than $20 / hour. If there is a minimum wage, those people are not able to work. So they don't have the freedom to work if they want to. You are free to buy a phone from someone else if you don't like Apple's terms. Everyone at Apple is not forced to do labor to provide you something that they don't want to provide. We have what are called "right-to-work" states which means that people in those states are not forced to join unions in those states. In other states, if there is a union at a particular workplace, employees are forced to join it, even if they do not want to.
- Spivak 4y ago
  > Anarchy would be without laws. And you don't see laws as antithetical to individual freedom? Anyone bound by a law by definition is less free. Paying someone less than what is required for them to live in the area they work reduces my individual freedom because I end up forced to pay the cost of your laborer through social welfare programs. When you buy anything including labor you pay for its cost not its value to you. Is requiring food be safe to eat forcing someone to do labor they don't want to provide? If you don't like that a workplace has a union you're free work somewhere else. Unionized workplaces aren't forced to provide you the benefits of collective bargaining without joining. Liberty is way more complicated than you're making it and isn't fewer restrictions on individuals --> more feee.
brigandish 4y ago
It appears to me that they're describing a negative liberty whereas you're describing a positive liberty. From [1]: > As [Iasiah] Berlin showed, negative and positive liberty are not merely two distinct kinds of liberty; they can be seen as rival, incompatible interpretations of a single political ideal. Since few people claim to be against liberty, the way this term is interpreted and defined can have important political implications. Political liberalism tends to presuppose a negative definition of liberty: liberals generally claim that if one favors individual liberty one should place strong limitations on the activities of the state. Critics of liberalism often contest this implication by contesting the negative definition of liberty: they argue that the pursuit of liberty understood as self-realization or as self-determination (whether of the individual or of the collectivity) can require state intervention of a kind not normally allowed by liberals. [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative...

by Spivak 4y ago

sib 4y ago

Anarchy would be without laws. I am describing liberty. There are people whose work is worth less than $20 / hour. If there is a minimum wage, those people are not able to work. So they don't have the freedom to work if they want to. You are free to buy a phone from someone else if you don't like Apple's terms. Everyone at Apple is not forced to do labor to provide you something that they don't want to provide. We have what are called "right-to-work" states which means that people in those states are not forced to join unions in those states. In other states, if there is a union at a particular workplace, employees are forced to join it, even if they do not want to.

Spivak 4y ago
> Anarchy would be without laws. And you don't see laws as antithetical to individual freedom? Anyone bound by a law by definition is less free. Paying someone less than what is required for them to live in the area they work reduces my individual freedom because I end up forced to pay the cost of your laborer through social welfare programs. When you buy anything including labor you pay for its cost not its value to you. Is requiring food be safe to eat forcing someone to do labor they don't want to provide? If you don't like that a workplace has a union you're free work somewhere else. Unionized workplaces aren't forced to provide you the benefits of collective bargaining without joining. Liberty is way more complicated than you're making it and isn't fewer restrictions on individuals --> more feee.

brigandish 4y ago

It appears to me that they're describing a negative liberty whereas you're describing a positive liberty. From [1]: > As [Iasiah] Berlin showed, negative and positive liberty are not merely two distinct kinds of liberty; they can be seen as rival, incompatible interpretations of a single political ideal. Since few people claim to be against liberty, the way this term is interpreted and defined can have important political implications. Political liberalism tends to presuppose a negative definition of liberty: liberals generally claim that if one favors individual liberty one should place strong limitations on the activities of the state. Critics of liberalism often contest this implication by contesting the negative definition of liberty: they argue that the pursuit of liberty understood as self-realization or as self-determination (whether of the individual or of the collectivity) can require state intervention of a kind not normally allowed by liberals. [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative...