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That's the first result on Kagi, but I think that's because they just call Google behind the scenes for you. Edit: I didn't mean this to be an insult, I pay fo

That's the first result on Kagi, but I think that's because they just call Google behind the scenes for you. Edit: I didn't mean this to be an insult, I pay for Kagi and use it exclusively. But actually, the Kagi and Google first page of results look fairly different for this query, so Kagi is doing more curation and ordering than I realized.

Spivak 4y ago
That's pretty much how all small search engines work, but with varying backing indexes. Kagi's value-add is Google quality index (since they literally pay for it), no ads, their ranking algorithm, and tools to control the results that Google doesn't give you like blacklists and your own weights. $25/mo is unfortunately a little steep because their lower priced option with 700 searches/month is comically small. On just my work browser I have 4000 Google searches last month. Doesn't count my personal laptop or phone. It's really hard to compete with $0/mo. for Google + AdBlock. I really do like Kagi better but $25/mo. is Tailscale + Notion + Spotify.
- eitland 4y ago
  I have the early adopter professional plan, but I must admit that while I consider myself very much a power user I have never been close to even 700 searches a month.
  - mathgorges 4y ago
    Can you walk me through what a typical search day is like for you? To me, the 700 soft limit seems absurd so I'm curious to hear how you interact with the product. I average 50-100 searches per work day and 10-20 searcher per off day (totalling 1-2.5k per month). But I don't feel I'm using search in a particularly strange way. For example, if I need to know how the new WidgetBean in SpringBoot works I'll usually end up making ~10 queries related to it before I move on to a new area of research. E.g., I'll search "SpringBoot WidgetBean release notes" then "SpringBoot WidgetBean examples" or "WidgetBean test double", "WidgetBean in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean PowerMock known issues in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean FooService interation in MockMvc test SpringBoot 3". Essentially, when I'm searching I go wide to survey the information landscape, then refine my search term as I discover what I actually need to know This quickly balloons as I'm expected to know many things at $dayjob :) What does it look like when you search?
    - eitland 4y ago
      I'll try to get back with some numbers later today.
      - eitland 4y ago
        This month, sorry for the crazy date formatting, I copied it from the Kagi UI: Date (UTC) Searches Apr 28, 2023 23 Apr 27, 2023 11 Apr 26, 2023 24 Apr 25, 2023 4 Apr 24, 2023 18 Apr 23, 2023 7 Apr 22, 2023 1 Apr 21, 2023 6 Apr 20, 2023 7 Apr 19, 2023 10 Apr 17, 2023 18 Apr 16, 2023 1 Apr 15, 2023 14 Apr 14, 2023 22 Apr 13, 2023 7 Apr 12, 2023 18 Apr 11, 2023 11 Apr 10, 2023 13 Apr 9, 2023 4 Apr 8, 2023 15 Apr 7, 2023 7 Apr 6, 2023 6 Apr 5, 2023 7 Apr 4, 2023 12 Apr 3, 2023 19 Apr 2, 2023 11 Apr 1, 2023 15 The last few months: (UTC) Searches Apr 2023 311 Mar 2023 495 Feb 2023 313 Jan 2023 434 Dec 2022 386 Nov 2022 396 Oct 2022 425 How I search: I typically start with one of the same type of queries as you did above, then I open every interesting-looking page from the first query in a nested tab (I use tree style tabs in my "research" browser) and start reading them, ctrl-clicking again to open interesting links in new tabs nested in a new level beneath, closing pages that was clearly useless and bookmarking in raindrop if I immediately sense that the oage I am on is something I will need again. Once I have exhausted this tree, at least temporarily, I start a new search - like you do - in a new top level tab anf create a new tree from it.
- Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
  As an early adopter, I reluctantly cancelled my Kagi plan today. It’s a great search engine, but even while just restricting it to one of my desktop machines and not using it on mobile at all, I ran up against the search limit with 10 days to go before renewal.
  - freediver 4y ago
    There is no search limit on Kagi. Do you mean you were not comfortable to pay 1.5 cents per search?
    - rainburg 4y ago
      Not OP, but… I don’t consider myself a “power user”, but as it turns out, I use search for nearly everything: reviews, code snippets, spelling, cafes, stores, apps, news, products, files… But, perhaps, the most common type of search is when you read a text or hear something and think: “Hey, what’s that?” And so I easily make 50–100 searches per day when I don’t even feel I’m actively searching for anything. And if I'm in a research mode, the count goes beyond that. I noticed that only after I’ve subscribed to Kagi. After realising that I’ll burn throw the plan’s allowance very quickly, I tried doing most of my “dumb” searches via Google, and more important stuff — via Kagi. But that introduces a cognitive load, and kills the point of using a paid search engine. Perhaps, I should switch to the $25 plan, but I can’t justify paying $250–$300 annually for a search engine, even though I have nothing against the idea of paying for one. Unfortunately, it’s too much for me. Nevertheless, I’m rooting for Kagi because it ticks all the boxes for me, and provides value. I hope that operational costs go down, and more people could use it.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Well yeah because ballparking at somewhere around 7k monthly searches that would be a hundred dollar monthly bill or a two hundred dollar bill if I wanted API because team plans increase the search cost for some reason. To be fair this is why the $25 plan exists but if the economics are to be believed is totally unsustainable. For me 1.5¢/search is a really awkward spot. Fixed cost unlimited and GPT cheap pricing of $0.000002/token hit "use without thinking" status but at 1.5/2.5¢ I could actually rack up a rather large bill by accident so it causes me to use the service less.
- mathgorges 4y ago
  This. Kagi is a great product and has been my daily driver for nearly a year. I honestly believe it's the best search engine on the market But I fear they're going to have to get their prices (and relatedly, cost per search) down considerably before I can recommend them to anyone again. I was fortunate enough to be grandfathered into an unlimited plan until March, but I don't think I know any professionals, e.g. people using a search engine to get work done, which search less than 24 times per day.
eitland 4y ago
They have API access to Google but there is clearly a sprinkling of magic and logic between. How can I know? The magic is proven by the fact that Kagi mostly respect my queries (or accept my bug reports if I can prove they didn't) despite being built on the shaky foundation of Bing and modern Google. Also there is some good old fashioned engineering there, like allowing me to pin, prioritize higher or lower or block certain sites.

Spivak 4y ago

That's pretty much how all small search engines work, but with varying backing indexes. Kagi's value-add is Google quality index (since they literally pay for it), no ads, their ranking algorithm, and tools to control the results that Google doesn't give you like blacklists and your own weights. $25/mo is unfortunately a little steep because their lower priced option with 700 searches/month is comically small. On just my work browser I have 4000 Google searches last month. Doesn't count my personal laptop or phone. It's really hard to compete with $0/mo. for Google + AdBlock. I really do like Kagi better but $25/mo. is Tailscale + Notion + Spotify.

eitland 4y ago
I have the early adopter professional plan, but I must admit that while I consider myself very much a power user I have never been close to even 700 searches a month.
- mathgorges 4y ago
  Can you walk me through what a typical search day is like for you? To me, the 700 soft limit seems absurd so I'm curious to hear how you interact with the product. I average 50-100 searches per work day and 10-20 searcher per off day (totalling 1-2.5k per month). But I don't feel I'm using search in a particularly strange way. For example, if I need to know how the new WidgetBean in SpringBoot works I'll usually end up making ~10 queries related to it before I move on to a new area of research. E.g., I'll search "SpringBoot WidgetBean release notes" then "SpringBoot WidgetBean examples" or "WidgetBean test double", "WidgetBean in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean PowerMock known issues in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean FooService interation in MockMvc test SpringBoot 3". Essentially, when I'm searching I go wide to survey the information landscape, then refine my search term as I discover what I actually need to know This quickly balloons as I'm expected to know many things at $dayjob :) What does it look like when you search?
  - eitland 4y ago
    I'll try to get back with some numbers later today.
    - eitland 4y ago
      This month, sorry for the crazy date formatting, I copied it from the Kagi UI: Date (UTC) Searches Apr 28, 2023 23 Apr 27, 2023 11 Apr 26, 2023 24 Apr 25, 2023 4 Apr 24, 2023 18 Apr 23, 2023 7 Apr 22, 2023 1 Apr 21, 2023 6 Apr 20, 2023 7 Apr 19, 2023 10 Apr 17, 2023 18 Apr 16, 2023 1 Apr 15, 2023 14 Apr 14, 2023 22 Apr 13, 2023 7 Apr 12, 2023 18 Apr 11, 2023 11 Apr 10, 2023 13 Apr 9, 2023 4 Apr 8, 2023 15 Apr 7, 2023 7 Apr 6, 2023 6 Apr 5, 2023 7 Apr 4, 2023 12 Apr 3, 2023 19 Apr 2, 2023 11 Apr 1, 2023 15 The last few months: (UTC) Searches Apr 2023 311 Mar 2023 495 Feb 2023 313 Jan 2023 434 Dec 2022 386 Nov 2022 396 Oct 2022 425 How I search: I typically start with one of the same type of queries as you did above, then I open every interesting-looking page from the first query in a nested tab (I use tree style tabs in my "research" browser) and start reading them, ctrl-clicking again to open interesting links in new tabs nested in a new level beneath, closing pages that was clearly useless and bookmarking in raindrop if I immediately sense that the oage I am on is something I will need again. Once I have exhausted this tree, at least temporarily, I start a new search - like you do - in a new top level tab anf create a new tree from it.
Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
As an early adopter, I reluctantly cancelled my Kagi plan today. It’s a great search engine, but even while just restricting it to one of my desktop machines and not using it on mobile at all, I ran up against the search limit with 10 days to go before renewal.
- freediver 4y ago
  There is no search limit on Kagi. Do you mean you were not comfortable to pay 1.5 cents per search?
  - rainburg 4y ago
    Not OP, but… I don’t consider myself a “power user”, but as it turns out, I use search for nearly everything: reviews, code snippets, spelling, cafes, stores, apps, news, products, files… But, perhaps, the most common type of search is when you read a text or hear something and think: “Hey, what’s that?” And so I easily make 50–100 searches per day when I don’t even feel I’m actively searching for anything. And if I'm in a research mode, the count goes beyond that. I noticed that only after I’ve subscribed to Kagi. After realising that I’ll burn throw the plan’s allowance very quickly, I tried doing most of my “dumb” searches via Google, and more important stuff — via Kagi. But that introduces a cognitive load, and kills the point of using a paid search engine. Perhaps, I should switch to the $25 plan, but I can’t justify paying $250–$300 annually for a search engine, even though I have nothing against the idea of paying for one. Unfortunately, it’s too much for me. Nevertheless, I’m rooting for Kagi because it ticks all the boxes for me, and provides value. I hope that operational costs go down, and more people could use it.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Well yeah because ballparking at somewhere around 7k monthly searches that would be a hundred dollar monthly bill or a two hundred dollar bill if I wanted API because team plans increase the search cost for some reason. To be fair this is why the $25 plan exists but if the economics are to be believed is totally unsustainable. For me 1.5¢/search is a really awkward spot. Fixed cost unlimited and GPT cheap pricing of $0.000002/token hit "use without thinking" status but at 1.5/2.5¢ I could actually rack up a rather large bill by accident so it causes me to use the service less.
mathgorges 4y ago
This. Kagi is a great product and has been my daily driver for nearly a year. I honestly believe it's the best search engine on the market But I fear they're going to have to get their prices (and relatedly, cost per search) down considerably before I can recommend them to anyone again. I was fortunate enough to be grandfathered into an unlimited plan until March, but I don't think I know any professionals, e.g. people using a search engine to get work done, which search less than 24 times per day.

eitland 4y ago

They have API access to Google but there is clearly a sprinkling of magic and logic between. How can I know? The magic is proven by the fact that Kagi mostly respect my queries (or accept my bug reports if I can prove they didn't) despite being built on the shaky foundation of Bing and modern Google. Also there is some good old fashioned engineering there, like allowing me to pin, prioritize higher or lower or block certain sites.