5 ms·

We understand it now, 2 + 2 = 5 In all seriousness, changing language to fit some weird political philosophy and then berating others for not going along is as

by Alupis 4y ago

We understand it now, 2 + 2 = 5 In all seriousness, changing language to fit some weird political philosophy and then berating others for not going along is as dangerous as it is outrageous. Constructs in your head are not real. When you die, they are gone forever. Yet, when they dig up your body 1,000 years from now as some sort of archeological dig, they will study your skeleton and determine your biological sex with certainty. You (or anyone) is free to think whatever you want about yourself or others - but you are not free to force others to think like you, particularly when your thoughts are irrational and not grounded in reality or scientific fact. And people make fun of the flat-earthers for denying reality and objective facts...

sobkas 4y ago
> We understand it now, 2 + 2 = 5 "if someone says 2+2=5, the correct response is, ‘What are your definitions and axioms?’ not a rant about the decline of Western civilization". From Wikipedia because math is hard, let's go right wing. Use a wiki or something. Because when even I know that 2 + 2 = 5 can be true in some cases then you might want to reconsider your arguments. BTW. A + B != B + A also can be true. > Constructs in your head are not real. When you die, they are gone forever. Almost all of you is a construct, there are few things directly wired into the brain(but they aren't irrelevant) but most of it is learned. And when you die everything you had in your brain is gone forever. And then by your definition things that make us us are fiction. And they are as fictional as gender(btw. gender is not sex, and sex is more complex).
digging 4y ago
Woof, I'm not going to engage fully with this post. It is too loaded. I am not sure I can fully parse this post, but I am going to state some assertions that I believe respond to the statements made. I am going to agree (?) that gender is a construct. I assert that it is a social construct. It does not exist inside our cells, only in our minds (individually and collectively). I am going to disagree that sex is determined by our skeletons. I assert that skeletal structure and other phenotypical features are symptoms of sex, which is determined by genes. This is a scientific consensus as far as I can tell. I believe I am disagreeing with you when I say that there are more than two possible outcomes of genetic sex determination. This is obvious, because there are multiple sex-determination systems in animals, not just XY. There is X0, there is ZW, and there are others. Even within XY, there are variations. An individual can be born with XXY chromosomes. Or they can be born male with XX chromosomes, or female with XY chromosomes. Or, a human can be born female with XX chromosomes, no outward differences from typical female phenotype, and feel they are a man. This is because, as stated above, gender is a social construct. Not actually sure if we agree or disagree on that. There is no berating happening here or anything else that should make a person feel victimized. Just science. A little more advanced than grade school science, but still science.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > A little more advanced than grade school science, but still science. "He who controls the language controls the masses." - Saul Alinsky > Even within XY, there are variations. An individual can be born with XXY chromosomes. Or they can be born male with XX chromosomes, or female with XY chromosomes We are not discussing extremely rare genetic defects. We're discussing people who slander biological genders by dressing as offensive caricatures and then demand everyone else participate in their mental illness.
  - digging 4y ago
    This is paranoia and hate speech and I'm not continuing.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      Everyone already knows what tribe you belong to; there's no reason to signal here. Which is why there is no substantive conversation around this subject. As soon as we don't agree, it's suddenly hate speech.
      - digging 4y ago
        You brought out emotionally charged language in response to my post about biological sex determination, which was in response to a post filled with emotionally charged language. It has nothing to do with whether or not we disagree. It's that you haven't expressed your ideas in a way that doesn't denigrate trans people and make you sound like the victim of their existence. I don't call it hate speech because you aren't on my side. I call it hate speech because it treats transgender people as uniformly ill and invalidates their identity. (You'll find that if we stop doing that, their mental health tends to be pretty good.) And because the rigidness of the gender binary in modern western society is not universal across time and space within human cultures and it exists in opposition to scientific understanding. You are saying right now that you want a genuine engagement. I'm a sucker for debate obviously. This is your chance to genuinely engage, lay out your scientific reasoning why a biologically female person with XX chromosomes should be forced by their peers into accepting the gender roles that other people say they must have regardless of what makes them feel good or happy.
mitchdoogle 4y ago
"You (or anyone) is free to think whatever you want about yourself or others - but you are not free to force others to think like you" No one cares what anyone else thinks. The only thing that matters is behavior. If your behavior is harmful to others, then we certainly are free to try and change that behavior.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Constructs in your head are not real. If gender is not real, then why do you care what gender people are assigned. > Yet, when they dig up your body 1,000 years from now as some sort of archeological dig, they will study your skeleton and determine your biological sex with certainty. I mean, its thousands of years in the future, so maybe, but if we do it today, that’s not how it works; there’s a scale for skeletons of “Female, Probable Female, Intermediate, Probable Male, Male” and even the extremes are subject to caveats. But who cares? Why would what archeologists will think about your sex from your bones in some distant future constrain your gender expression in life?
- Alupis 4y ago
  No one said gender is not real, you are asserting an argument I did not make. The notion you can be whatever you want - that is not real, that exists solely in your head. As an adult, you are free to do whatever you want - so long as it does not impact me and my life. Which is the problem isn't it... people forcefully impacting my life to please themselves. Forcing me to guess whatever pronouns you happen to what to use today is not a game I am going to play. If I demanded you refer to me as "King Alupis" in every one of your responses, you would probably not play that game either, despite the obvious happiness it would bring me.

by Alupis 4y ago

sobkas 4y ago

> We understand it now, 2 + 2 = 5 "if someone says 2+2=5, the correct response is, ‘What are your definitions and axioms?’ not a rant about the decline of Western civilization". From Wikipedia because math is hard, let's go right wing. Use a wiki or something. Because when even I know that 2 + 2 = 5 can be true in some cases then you might want to reconsider your arguments. BTW. A + B != B + A also can be true. > Constructs in your head are not real. When you die, they are gone forever. Almost all of you is a construct, there are few things directly wired into the brain(but they aren't irrelevant) but most of it is learned. And when you die everything you had in your brain is gone forever. And then by your definition things that make us us are fiction. And they are as fictional as gender(btw. gender is not sex, and sex is more complex).

digging 4y ago

Woof, I'm not going to engage fully with this post. It is too loaded. I am not sure I can fully parse this post, but I am going to state some assertions that I believe respond to the statements made. I am going to agree (?) that gender is a construct. I assert that it is a social construct. It does not exist inside our cells, only in our minds (individually and collectively). I am going to disagree that sex is determined by our skeletons. I assert that skeletal structure and other phenotypical features are symptoms of sex, which is determined by genes. This is a scientific consensus as far as I can tell. I believe I am disagreeing with you when I say that there are more than two possible outcomes of genetic sex determination. This is obvious, because there are multiple sex-determination systems in animals, not just XY. There is X0, there is ZW, and there are others. Even within XY, there are variations. An individual can be born with XXY chromosomes. Or they can be born male with XX chromosomes, or female with XY chromosomes. Or, a human can be born female with XX chromosomes, no outward differences from typical female phenotype, and feel they are a man. This is because, as stated above, gender is a social construct. Not actually sure if we agree or disagree on that. There is no berating happening here or anything else that should make a person feel victimized. Just science. A little more advanced than grade school science, but still science.

Alupis 4y ago
> A little more advanced than grade school science, but still science. "He who controls the language controls the masses." - Saul Alinsky > Even within XY, there are variations. An individual can be born with XXY chromosomes. Or they can be born male with XX chromosomes, or female with XY chromosomes We are not discussing extremely rare genetic defects. We're discussing people who slander biological genders by dressing as offensive caricatures and then demand everyone else participate in their mental illness.
- digging 4y ago
  This is paranoia and hate speech and I'm not continuing.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    Everyone already knows what tribe you belong to; there's no reason to signal here. Which is why there is no substantive conversation around this subject. As soon as we don't agree, it's suddenly hate speech.
    - digging 4y ago
      You brought out emotionally charged language in response to my post about biological sex determination, which was in response to a post filled with emotionally charged language. It has nothing to do with whether or not we disagree. It's that you haven't expressed your ideas in a way that doesn't denigrate trans people and make you sound like the victim of their existence. I don't call it hate speech because you aren't on my side. I call it hate speech because it treats transgender people as uniformly ill and invalidates their identity. (You'll find that if we stop doing that, their mental health tends to be pretty good.) And because the rigidness of the gender binary in modern western society is not universal across time and space within human cultures and it exists in opposition to scientific understanding. You are saying right now that you want a genuine engagement. I'm a sucker for debate obviously. This is your chance to genuinely engage, lay out your scientific reasoning why a biologically female person with XX chromosomes should be forced by their peers into accepting the gender roles that other people say they must have regardless of what makes them feel good or happy.

mitchdoogle 4y ago

"You (or anyone) is free to think whatever you want about yourself or others - but you are not free to force others to think like you" No one cares what anyone else thinks. The only thing that matters is behavior. If your behavior is harmful to others, then we certainly are free to try and change that behavior.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Constructs in your head are not real. If gender is not real, then why do you care what gender people are assigned. > Yet, when they dig up your body 1,000 years from now as some sort of archeological dig, they will study your skeleton and determine your biological sex with certainty. I mean, its thousands of years in the future, so maybe, but if we do it today, that’s not how it works; there’s a scale for skeletons of “Female, Probable Female, Intermediate, Probable Male, Male” and even the extremes are subject to caveats. But who cares? Why would what archeologists will think about your sex from your bones in some distant future constrain your gender expression in life?

Alupis 4y ago
No one said gender is not real, you are asserting an argument I did not make. The notion you can be whatever you want - that is not real, that exists solely in your head. As an adult, you are free to do whatever you want - so long as it does not impact me and my life. Which is the problem isn't it... people forcefully impacting my life to please themselves. Forcing me to guess whatever pronouns you happen to what to use today is not a game I am going to play. If I demanded you refer to me as "King Alupis" in every one of your responses, you would probably not play that game either, despite the obvious happiness it would bring me.