4 ms·

I’m not convinced that outsourcing it to private enterprise is bad. Outsourcing it overseas, that’s a really big issue.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nordsieck 3y ago
> I’m not convinced that outsourcing it to private enterprise is bad. Counterpoint: In every war that involves a substantial conventional component, there has been a huge ammunition shortage. Even though people know this, the phenomenon still exists. Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. It's simply completely uneconomical. It's possible that a sort of public-private partnership could exist where the government pays companies to maintain huge excess capacity, but I don't really see a substantial difference between that and the government just owning everything. And it's important that this excess capacity gets used often, otherwise there's a big risk that it won't work when it's eventually called upon. Which isn't to say that there's no place for private enterprise to supply ammunition to the government. Just that it probably shouldn't be the only source.
- diegoholiveira 3y ago
  > Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. IMO, private industry produces, the government buys and store it. I'm thinking wrongly here?
- 0zemp2c 3y ago
  > Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. It's simply completely uneconomical. not in the US, many ammo providers have substantially expanded production in response to civilian demand, and only recently have prices come down so if you limit your worldview to 9mm and .556, the US is far more capable of producing in volume than anywhere, perhaps well beyond the rest-of-the-world
- akiselev 3y ago
  Based on what happened with the Strategic National Stockpile [1] right before COVID hit, I don’t have much confidence in government run capacity either: > From 2017 to 2019, the Trump administration failed to replace masks and other supplies used in earlier disasters. In May 2020, in a House subcommittee meeting, whistle-blower Dr. Rick Bright, previous director of Department of Health and Human Services’ Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, explained that the Trump administration had ignored his early warnings to stock up on masks and other supplies to combat the coronavirus. I’d like to think that we’ve learned our lesson with COVID and we can blame it all on the-administration-that-must-not-be-named but that’s naive. The supply problem has been growing in magnitude for decades and is likely caused in part by the same policies that lead to anticonsumer consolidation in the rest of the market. Bring back trust busting! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_National_Stockpile https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_National_Stockpile
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    One problem with masks is that they are statically charged and that charge depletes pretty rapidly. So it's not as if you can create a bunch of stock for 'some unspecified time in the future', you'll have to continuously renew it at that level every couple of months. This is certainly going to raise eyebrows if there isn't a demand for a longer period of time and someone figures they can cut that cost without impacting safety. Which works. Right up until the next pandemic and then you're back where you were before. This sort of vigilance is very costly and it is hard to get everybody to agree on the appropriate level over time.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Maybe we shouldn't elect presidents who make it their mission to destroy anything the previous administration built?
    - yawpitch 3y ago
      Depends entirely on precisely what the previous administration built, don’t you think?
  - 3y ago
sologoub 3y ago
Cost cutting combined with mismanagement at work here. As the saying goes - two is one, one is none… It would make sense to pay for at least 3 or more of these to be open (privately or military operated) at any given time. Hopefully the military have a plan for a rapid buildup in case of an acute need.
pjc50 3y ago
Private companies will no longer discriminate against overseas staffing or, perhaps more importantly, ownership.
- biohax2015 3y ago
  No way. Military contractors are barred from hiring overseas, or giving up ownership stakes to overseas entities. It's why they're great places to work if job security is your thing.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
  The US doesn't allow critical military production infrastructure to be foreign owned.
  - slowhand09 3y ago
    Look at every computer monitor on every military desk. I bet it says "Made in ____".
    - throwaway52407 3y ago
      the military computers I've seen are typically from Dell, an american company. Manuafacturing is probably foreign, though.
      - slowhand09 3y ago
        4 Dell monitors on my desk were made in China.
Bran_son 3y ago
A different perspective: This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence-economic, political, even spiritual-is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. - President Dwight D. Eisenhower's Farewell Address, 1961 https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwigh...
slowhand09 3y ago
That should also be weighed when decisions highly dependent on products such as petroleum, lithium, cobalt...
FpUser 3y ago
I see the following problem here. When the war starts citizens are forced to tighten the belts. Military industry meanwhile gets rich so they're inherently supportive of wars.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

> I’m not convinced that outsourcing it to private enterprise is bad. Counterpoint: In every war that involves a substantial conventional component, there has been a huge ammunition shortage. Even though people know this, the phenomenon still exists. Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. It's simply completely uneconomical. It's possible that a sort of public-private partnership could exist where the government pays companies to maintain huge excess capacity, but I don't really see a substantial difference between that and the government just owning everything. And it's important that this excess capacity gets used often, otherwise there's a big risk that it won't work when it's eventually called upon. Which isn't to say that there's no place for private enterprise to supply ammunition to the government. Just that it probably shouldn't be the only source.

diegoholiveira 3y ago
> Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. IMO, private industry produces, the government buys and store it. I'm thinking wrongly here?
0zemp2c 3y ago
> Private industry isn't going to maintain huge "burst" capacity. It's simply completely uneconomical. not in the US, many ammo providers have substantially expanded production in response to civilian demand, and only recently have prices come down so if you limit your worldview to 9mm and .556, the US is far more capable of producing in volume than anywhere, perhaps well beyond the rest-of-the-world
akiselev 3y ago
Based on what happened with the Strategic National Stockpile [1] right before COVID hit, I don’t have much confidence in government run capacity either: > From 2017 to 2019, the Trump administration failed to replace masks and other supplies used in earlier disasters. In May 2020, in a House subcommittee meeting, whistle-blower Dr. Rick Bright, previous director of Department of Health and Human Services’ Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, explained that the Trump administration had ignored his early warnings to stock up on masks and other supplies to combat the coronavirus. I’d like to think that we’ve learned our lesson with COVID and we can blame it all on the-administration-that-must-not-be-named but that’s naive. The supply problem has been growing in magnitude for decades and is likely caused in part by the same policies that lead to anticonsumer consolidation in the rest of the market. Bring back trust busting! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_National_Stockpile https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_National_Stockpile
- jacquesm 3y ago
  One problem with masks is that they are statically charged and that charge depletes pretty rapidly. So it's not as if you can create a bunch of stock for 'some unspecified time in the future', you'll have to continuously renew it at that level every couple of months. This is certainly going to raise eyebrows if there isn't a demand for a longer period of time and someone figures they can cut that cost without impacting safety. Which works. Right up until the next pandemic and then you're back where you were before. This sort of vigilance is very costly and it is hard to get everybody to agree on the appropriate level over time.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Maybe we shouldn't elect presidents who make it their mission to destroy anything the previous administration built?
  - yawpitch 3y ago
    Depends entirely on precisely what the previous administration built, don’t you think?
- 3y ago

sologoub 3y ago

Cost cutting combined with mismanagement at work here. As the saying goes - two is one, one is none… It would make sense to pay for at least 3 or more of these to be open (privately or military operated) at any given time. Hopefully the military have a plan for a rapid buildup in case of an acute need.

pjc50 3y ago

Private companies will no longer discriminate against overseas staffing or, perhaps more importantly, ownership.

biohax2015 3y ago
No way. Military contractors are barred from hiring overseas, or giving up ownership stakes to overseas entities. It's why they're great places to work if job security is your thing.
kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
The US doesn't allow critical military production infrastructure to be foreign owned.
- slowhand09 3y ago
  Look at every computer monitor on every military desk. I bet it says "Made in ____".
  - throwaway52407 3y ago
    the military computers I've seen are typically from Dell, an american company. Manuafacturing is probably foreign, though.
    - slowhand09 3y ago
      4 Dell monitors on my desk were made in China.

Bran_son 3y ago

A different perspective: This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence-economic, political, even spiritual-is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. - President Dwight D. Eisenhower's Farewell Address, 1961 https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwigh...

slowhand09 3y ago

That should also be weighed when decisions highly dependent on products such as petroleum, lithium, cobalt...

FpUser 3y ago

I see the following problem here. When the war starts citizens are forced to tighten the belts. Military industry meanwhile gets rich so they're inherently supportive of wars.