7 ms·

America and Europe need to start making these kinds of advanced chips themselves as soon as possible. Taiwan is now the only place where this is possible.

by svdr 3y ago

brink 3y ago
If we have to go back to 4 or 5nm processors for a while, it won't be the end of the world.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  Europe doesn't have 4 and 5 nm fabs on its soil nor European owned fabs aboard. GloFo Dresden goes down to 22nm.
  - vonzepp 3y ago
    Smallest probably 7nm Intel in Ireland. Not sure it is online yet though
    - osnium123 3y ago
      Intel Ireland (Fab 24/34) will be producing Intel 4 and 3, which is an EUV based node
      - terminalcommand 3y ago
        So potentially they could even go to finer architectures?
    - worrycue 3y ago
      Intel has stopped using "nm" - it's meaningless anyway; hasn't been meaningful since 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Feature_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabricati...). Now it's just Intel 7 (currently in use), Intel 4 (successor to Intel 7 for internal use) and Intel 3 (based off Intel 4 for their foundry services).
  - eis 3y ago
    Intels Fab 24 in Ireland does 14nm at least. But yea, Europe really missed the boat hard on chip manufacturing even though they have ASML sitting in the Netherlands. Actually they already were in the game with several fabs. And then there was ARM. Feels like they not just missed the boat but mismanaged and then sold it for scraps while they could have had a realistic shot of being at the top of the game. Sigh.
    - foobarian 3y ago
      Wonder why that is. Is it too easy to move abroad where the money is way better?
      - arethuza 3y ago
        ASML who makes the EUV machines and Carl Zeiss who make the optics for the ASML machines are both in Europe?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        foobarian 3y ago
        Exactly, so why are the leading foundries also not there?
      - Gasp0de 3y ago
        America and Asia have cheaper labor and energy although I don't know how much of an advantage that really is for such a highly complex product.
      - eis 3y ago
        Taiwan made the foundry business a strategic priority for multiple reasons. Intel at least for the US was always a business with national security impact. Europe never realized the importance and didn't make it anywhere near priority. They did not provide enough on-going incentives nor did they protect their companies from being sold to foreign ones. Instead the companies jumped hard on the outsourcing train and pushed as much manufacturing abroad as possible. This was a very shortsighted move that temporarily increased profits but traded the future for it. When nation-states put their weight behind something then it's nearly impossible to compete unless your own nation-state puts their weight behind you as well. There is still some chance for Europe to come back into it but I have doubts they'll find the will to do it.
  - hardware2win 3y ago
    Modern fab is being built in Germany by Intel iirc
    - konschubert 3y ago
      Maybe
MichaelZuo 3y ago
Isn't that why only Taiwan has them? Because they have vastly more incentive to have them made on the island, then anyone else would have on their territory. And the Taiwanese employees have more external motivation then anyone could feasibly have in the U.S. or Europe.
- alchemist1e9 3y ago
  If I understand you correctly you are saying their unique geopolitical position has an effective on incentives to make semiconductors. That’s really interesting and once I think about it explicitly it makes sense. Excellent point!
  - oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
    > 護國神山 "Sacred Mountain protecting the Country" = TSMC https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/wzqtd1/chinese_it_names_nicknames_toothpaste_intel/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/wzqtd1/chinese_it...
    - MangoCoffee 3y ago
      that's Media's b.s. No country based their national security on a private company. its ridiculous. Apple make iPhone that everyone love. Apple is the Shield that protect USA or maybe Google, Facebook? how about Ukraine is the food basket of Europe or perhaps even the world since Ukraine is a big exporter of grains. surely no one will attack Ukraine because the food price will soar and possible world wide famine.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        They are a small island off the coast of a superpower that is pre-inclined to want to conquer them. They’ve been dealt a unique and very difficult hand, they are playing it was well as they can.
      - oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
        Did you reply to the wrong post? I didn't make any claims whatsoever and yet somehow you managed to build a strawman out of mine.
tambourine_man 3y ago
The history of Intel's decline, TSMC's rise and how the US lost the lead in manufacturing is one of the most relevant and poorly explored that I can recall. If you speak to anyone not generally interested in the field, they are oblivious despite being profoundly impacted by it.
mrtksn 3y ago
Here is a brilliant video on Why Europe Lost Semiconductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZdmS-EAbHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZdmS-EAbHo It boils down to education and economical structure differences with US and JP. To be on the cutting edge requires extreme scale and multidisciplinary talent. Europe, despite being in the front lines of the innovation, falls off as the European industries and military don't create the demand at scale required to keep up with the Americans. It's probably a similar story with the US today. China is 5X the population and they do all the manufacturing, they have amazing talent which vanished from the west with de-industrialisation. It was way more profitable to design stuff in California and make it in China. If everything is made in China and you demand fat margins, why would you have large scale cutting edge chip manufacturing in EU or USA? This become problem only after the break down of the supply chains and increase in political conflicts. But as the rest of the world catches up with IP and R&D, the manufacturing is bound to come back to the west. When you can do so much with a laptop and brains and China and India having so much from those, the West will have to start doing the low margin "uncool" stuff like producing physical goods.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Given the context when you say China, I assume you mean Taiwan. China plays a role too, but TSMC is not Chinese. Given the lithography equipment used by TSMC is built by a single European company, I think it’s disingenuous to exclude Europe from the production chain. I think the reality is fairly complex and the entire world is involved in the end to end production. Further, TSMC is working to diversify their production facilities to meet some of the onshorinf demands rising from the pandemic chip shortage fiasco. Additionally the instability between China and Taiwan is driving regional diversification. China has made itself such an undesirable business partner there’s enormous pressure top to bottom across all industries to find alternatives for sourcing. Margins in China have gotten worse due to a rising labor movement and improved general prosperity. Finally, there are other semiconductor manufacturers (global foundries, etc) that are striving to catch up - and it’s the nature of things that someone will. So, I agree, the world will start diversifying production out of China for many reasons. This will be better for everyone, even, IMO, China.
dragonelite 3y ago
If you break it down, ASML is dependent on a US based company called CYMER(owned by ASML) without cymer EUV light source exports ASML is fucked will have a hard time creating EUV machine. The US also makes a lot of the chemicals and EDA software packages. The US pretty much controls and owns advance chips. What they needed from taiwan was just a highly skilled sweat shop workers. Just look at the difference between the workload between TSMC workers in the US and on Taiwan. That is why US sanctions are so effective they are like an octopus and have their tentacles all over the place controlling key nodes which can disrupt or destroy complete supply lines. This is what following the tech war has kind of thought me.
- cma 3y ago
  ASML's EUV tech also came in part from the US's EUV LLC (public/private partnership from the 90s), and that's one reason we were able to control their exports to China.
MikeTheRocker 3y ago
I am so terrified for the effects on technological and economic progress a US/China military conflict over Taiwan would bring (not to mention the obvious other tragic and heinous consequences of war).
jurschreuder 3y ago
TSMC used to be 30% owned by Phillips, the same company that started ASML, the company that makes the machines that produce the chips for ASML. So the machines used to make these chips are Dutch and TSMC that uses these machines was originally Dutch. I think Europe could easily make these chips if they did not outsource so much to save money.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I wonder if a company that didn’t outsource to save money on these sorts of chips could survive in the Europe/US markets… “Can” is always a funny phrase in these sorts of conversations. I mean it is clearly possible to make these chips because they make them in Taiwan. We’d just need a fundamentally different economy and long term investments, including a different labor force, probably different education system to get it…

America and Europe need to start making these kinds of advanced chips themselves as soon as possible. Taiwan is now the only place where this is possible.

by svdr 3y ago

America and Europe need to start making these kinds of advanced chips themselves as soon as possible. Taiwan is now the only place where this is possible.

brink 3y ago

If we have to go back to 4 or 5nm processors for a while, it won't be the end of the world.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
Europe doesn't have 4 and 5 nm fabs on its soil nor European owned fabs aboard. GloFo Dresden goes down to 22nm.
- vonzepp 3y ago
  Smallest probably 7nm Intel in Ireland. Not sure it is online yet though
  - osnium123 3y ago
    Intel Ireland (Fab 24/34) will be producing Intel 4 and 3, which is an EUV based node
    - terminalcommand 3y ago
      So potentially they could even go to finer architectures?
  - worrycue 3y ago
    Intel has stopped using "nm" - it's meaningless anyway; hasn't been meaningful since 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Feature_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabricati...). Now it's just Intel 7 (currently in use), Intel 4 (successor to Intel 7 for internal use) and Intel 3 (based off Intel 4 for their foundry services).
- eis 3y ago
  Intels Fab 24 in Ireland does 14nm at least. But yea, Europe really missed the boat hard on chip manufacturing even though they have ASML sitting in the Netherlands. Actually they already were in the game with several fabs. And then there was ARM. Feels like they not just missed the boat but mismanaged and then sold it for scraps while they could have had a realistic shot of being at the top of the game. Sigh.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    Wonder why that is. Is it too easy to move abroad where the money is way better?
    - arethuza 3y ago
      ASML who makes the EUV machines and Carl Zeiss who make the optics for the ASML machines are both in Europe?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - foobarian 3y ago
        Exactly, so why are the leading foundries also not there?
    - Gasp0de 3y ago
      America and Asia have cheaper labor and energy although I don't know how much of an advantage that really is for such a highly complex product.
    - eis 3y ago
      Taiwan made the foundry business a strategic priority for multiple reasons. Intel at least for the US was always a business with national security impact. Europe never realized the importance and didn't make it anywhere near priority. They did not provide enough on-going incentives nor did they protect their companies from being sold to foreign ones. Instead the companies jumped hard on the outsourcing train and pushed as much manufacturing abroad as possible. This was a very shortsighted move that temporarily increased profits but traded the future for it. When nation-states put their weight behind something then it's nearly impossible to compete unless your own nation-state puts their weight behind you as well. There is still some chance for Europe to come back into it but I have doubts they'll find the will to do it.
- hardware2win 3y ago
  Modern fab is being built in Germany by Intel iirc
  - konschubert 3y ago
    Maybe

MichaelZuo 3y ago

Isn't that why only Taiwan has them? Because they have vastly more incentive to have them made on the island, then anyone else would have on their territory. And the Taiwanese employees have more external motivation then anyone could feasibly have in the U.S. or Europe.

alchemist1e9 3y ago
If I understand you correctly you are saying their unique geopolitical position has an effective on incentives to make semiconductors. That’s really interesting and once I think about it explicitly it makes sense. Excellent point!
- oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
  > 護國神山 "Sacred Mountain protecting the Country" = TSMC https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/wzqtd1/chinese_it_names_nicknames_toothpaste_intel/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/wzqtd1/chinese_it...
  - MangoCoffee 3y ago
    that's Media's b.s. No country based their national security on a private company. its ridiculous. Apple make iPhone that everyone love. Apple is the Shield that protect USA or maybe Google, Facebook? how about Ukraine is the food basket of Europe or perhaps even the world since Ukraine is a big exporter of grains. surely no one will attack Ukraine because the food price will soar and possible world wide famine.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      They are a small island off the coast of a superpower that is pre-inclined to want to conquer them. They’ve been dealt a unique and very difficult hand, they are playing it was well as they can.
    - oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
      Did you reply to the wrong post? I didn't make any claims whatsoever and yet somehow you managed to build a strawman out of mine.

tambourine_man 3y ago

The history of Intel's decline, TSMC's rise and how the US lost the lead in manufacturing is one of the most relevant and poorly explored that I can recall. If you speak to anyone not generally interested in the field, they are oblivious despite being profoundly impacted by it.

mrtksn 3y ago

Here is a brilliant video on Why Europe Lost Semiconductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZdmS-EAbHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZdmS-EAbHo It boils down to education and economical structure differences with US and JP. To be on the cutting edge requires extreme scale and multidisciplinary talent. Europe, despite being in the front lines of the innovation, falls off as the European industries and military don't create the demand at scale required to keep up with the Americans. It's probably a similar story with the US today. China is 5X the population and they do all the manufacturing, they have amazing talent which vanished from the west with de-industrialisation. It was way more profitable to design stuff in California and make it in China. If everything is made in China and you demand fat margins, why would you have large scale cutting edge chip manufacturing in EU or USA? This become problem only after the break down of the supply chains and increase in political conflicts. But as the rest of the world catches up with IP and R&D, the manufacturing is bound to come back to the west. When you can do so much with a laptop and brains and China and India having so much from those, the West will have to start doing the low margin "uncool" stuff like producing physical goods.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Given the context when you say China, I assume you mean Taiwan. China plays a role too, but TSMC is not Chinese. Given the lithography equipment used by TSMC is built by a single European company, I think it’s disingenuous to exclude Europe from the production chain. I think the reality is fairly complex and the entire world is involved in the end to end production. Further, TSMC is working to diversify their production facilities to meet some of the onshorinf demands rising from the pandemic chip shortage fiasco. Additionally the instability between China and Taiwan is driving regional diversification. China has made itself such an undesirable business partner there’s enormous pressure top to bottom across all industries to find alternatives for sourcing. Margins in China have gotten worse due to a rising labor movement and improved general prosperity. Finally, there are other semiconductor manufacturers (global foundries, etc) that are striving to catch up - and it’s the nature of things that someone will. So, I agree, the world will start diversifying production out of China for many reasons. This will be better for everyone, even, IMO, China.

dragonelite 3y ago

If you break it down, ASML is dependent on a US based company called CYMER(owned by ASML) without cymer EUV light source exports ASML is fucked will have a hard time creating EUV machine. The US also makes a lot of the chemicals and EDA software packages. The US pretty much controls and owns advance chips. What they needed from taiwan was just a highly skilled sweat shop workers. Just look at the difference between the workload between TSMC workers in the US and on Taiwan. That is why US sanctions are so effective they are like an octopus and have their tentacles all over the place controlling key nodes which can disrupt or destroy complete supply lines. This is what following the tech war has kind of thought me.

cma 3y ago
ASML's EUV tech also came in part from the US's EUV LLC (public/private partnership from the 90s), and that's one reason we were able to control their exports to China.

MikeTheRocker 3y ago

I am so terrified for the effects on technological and economic progress a US/China military conflict over Taiwan would bring (not to mention the obvious other tragic and heinous consequences of war).

jurschreuder 3y ago

TSMC used to be 30% owned by Phillips, the same company that started ASML, the company that makes the machines that produce the chips for ASML. So the machines used to make these chips are Dutch and TSMC that uses these machines was originally Dutch. I think Europe could easily make these chips if they did not outsource so much to save money.

bee_rider 3y ago
I wonder if a company that didn’t outsource to save money on these sorts of chips could survive in the Europe/US markets… “Can” is always a funny phrase in these sorts of conversations. I mean it is clearly possible to make these chips because they make them in Taiwan. We’d just need a fundamentally different economy and long term investments, including a different labor force, probably different education system to get it…