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It may be an unpopular opinion, especially on this site, but one thing I enjoy is extensive and long-lasting liturgies. Now I have seen priests who can compress

It may be an unpopular opinion, especially on this site, but one thing I enjoy is extensive and long-lasting liturgies. Now I have seen priests who can compress a "low" Catholic Mass into 20 minutes on a weekday. But there is something epic, powerful, and truly transcendent about a liturgy like the Easter Vigil, which can easily top 3 hours. There is a ton of things going on, lots of singing and great arrangements/instrumentation, some really special elements having to do with water, fire, and oil. It's the peak joyful time of the year and a real occasion to celebrate with all the stops pulled out (literally!) The other masters of long, ornate liturgies are those of the Byzantine Rite (which is, I believe, how "byzantine" came to have its generic meaning.) Christian liturgy is musical theatre before musical theatre was a thing.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
If your perspective is unpopular with HN readers, my guess would be it's because so many of us have ADD. I could easily believe HN readers are religious at the same rate as the general population.
- User23 4y ago
  Indeed. The notion that there is some kind of divide between math, science, and religion is, so far as I can tell, peculiar to a kind of predominantly American form of fundamentalism and, somewhat ironically, its atheist detractors. Catholics, Orthodox, and many Protestant denominations, as well as other world religions, have a rich tradition of studying the natural world objectively. Speaking to the Catholic intellectual tradition since that's the one that I know best, if our understanding of the Bible or Tradition disagrees with our understanding of natural science, then it's not necessarily our understanding of religion that's correct! As an example, while it's not technically dogmatic teaching either way, even though most Catholics used to be young Earth creationists the overwhelming majority now believe in an old Earth including the Popes[1]. [1] https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/proofs-for-the-existence-of-god-in-the-light-of-modern-natural-science-8950 https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/proofs-for-the-exis...
  - vouwfietsman 4y ago
    > The notion that there is some kind of divide between math, science, and religion Oh? There isn't a divide? > Catholics used to be young Earth creationists the overwhelming majority now believe in an old Earth Hey! There's the divide, its about 300 years! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment And if you feel like the divide is gone now: abortion euthenasia contraceptives sexual orientation
- decafninja 4y ago
  I could believe that for immigrants who are relatively recent, or still have heavy ties to their original cultures. However my experience has been that for those who are either natives to the US/West, or "gone native", there are disproportionally far more athiests in the tech industry than in the general population. I would also say mentioning that you are Christian at a random tech company or tech conference is likely to be met with more wariness than mentioning you are Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other religion.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    > I would also say mentioning that you are Christian at a random tech company or tech conference is likely to be met with more wariness than mentioning you are Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other religion. This is unsurprising to me. Most of those conferences (assuming you're talking about those which take place in American cities) will be attended primarily by people who grew up in a Christian culture (America). Many of such attendees who are atheists would still likely have been raised Christian and they're being wary of something they've rejected in the past. This is naturally compounded if it's true that "there are disproportionally far more athiests in the [US/Western] tech industry than in the general population." Not to excuse or condemn, just explaining my perspective.
    - decafninja 4y ago
      Oh, I fully understand. It also doesn't help that especially as of late, the loudest and most vocal contingent of American Christianity has become the face of the religion on media. I say this as a Christian myself.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
        I'm one of those who grew up Christian (Methodist) but would not consider that of myself today. The part of it which people often call "spirituality" is where I do my "backs away slowly" thing. I can be kind to those around me for many of the reasons which a Christian will think is Good but it doesn't mean I'll choose to believe in any sort of physical manifestation of God and The Heavens. (Admittedly, I don't think every Christian believes in these physical manifestations but I've had conversations with some who do, which makes me believe it's common.) I almost think it's accurate to call myself Christian in light of that but it muddies the understanding that other (actual) Christians have. Really, I would only call myself that to mess with the nice people with the ties and the name tags who knock on my door and don't listen the first time when I say, "No, thank you." I know some in the "ex-Mormon" crowd and they... have stronger opinions of religion. I can imagine some rather extreme implementations of "wariness" (read: "outright disdain") from an American in their late 20s to early 30s when it comes to Christianity.
cafard 4y ago
One can stretch a liturgy out without approaching the epic: sheer disorganization and even self-indulgence (of the choir, of the homilist) can contribute. I mention this because the same is true of movies.
User23 4y ago
To elaborate, for those who aren't familiar, the Easter Vigil when done in its long form includes nine readings instead of the usual 3, and they are considerably longer than the usual ones too. It's also traditionally when converts are accepted into the Church, which, depending on how many there are, can add to the time considerably. I say all of that to emphasize that it's not long because of a lack of pacing, but because there is a lot going on.
emptyfile 4y ago
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CoastalCoder 4y ago

If your perspective is unpopular with HN readers, my guess would be it's because so many of us have ADD. I could easily believe HN readers are religious at the same rate as the general population.

User23 4y ago
Indeed. The notion that there is some kind of divide between math, science, and religion is, so far as I can tell, peculiar to a kind of predominantly American form of fundamentalism and, somewhat ironically, its atheist detractors. Catholics, Orthodox, and many Protestant denominations, as well as other world religions, have a rich tradition of studying the natural world objectively. Speaking to the Catholic intellectual tradition since that's the one that I know best, if our understanding of the Bible or Tradition disagrees with our understanding of natural science, then it's not necessarily our understanding of religion that's correct! As an example, while it's not technically dogmatic teaching either way, even though most Catholics used to be young Earth creationists the overwhelming majority now believe in an old Earth including the Popes[1]. [1] https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/proofs-for-the-existence-of-god-in-the-light-of-modern-natural-science-8950 https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/proofs-for-the-exis...
- vouwfietsman 4y ago
  > The notion that there is some kind of divide between math, science, and religion Oh? There isn't a divide? > Catholics used to be young Earth creationists the overwhelming majority now believe in an old Earth Hey! There's the divide, its about 300 years! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment And if you feel like the divide is gone now: abortion euthenasia contraceptives sexual orientation
decafninja 4y ago
I could believe that for immigrants who are relatively recent, or still have heavy ties to their original cultures. However my experience has been that for those who are either natives to the US/West, or "gone native", there are disproportionally far more athiests in the tech industry than in the general population. I would also say mentioning that you are Christian at a random tech company or tech conference is likely to be met with more wariness than mentioning you are Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other religion.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  > I would also say mentioning that you are Christian at a random tech company or tech conference is likely to be met with more wariness than mentioning you are Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other religion. This is unsurprising to me. Most of those conferences (assuming you're talking about those which take place in American cities) will be attended primarily by people who grew up in a Christian culture (America). Many of such attendees who are atheists would still likely have been raised Christian and they're being wary of something they've rejected in the past. This is naturally compounded if it's true that "there are disproportionally far more athiests in the [US/Western] tech industry than in the general population." Not to excuse or condemn, just explaining my perspective.
  - decafninja 4y ago
    Oh, I fully understand. It also doesn't help that especially as of late, the loudest and most vocal contingent of American Christianity has become the face of the religion on media. I say this as a Christian myself.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      I'm one of those who grew up Christian (Methodist) but would not consider that of myself today. The part of it which people often call "spirituality" is where I do my "backs away slowly" thing. I can be kind to those around me for many of the reasons which a Christian will think is Good but it doesn't mean I'll choose to believe in any sort of physical manifestation of God and The Heavens. (Admittedly, I don't think every Christian believes in these physical manifestations but I've had conversations with some who do, which makes me believe it's common.) I almost think it's accurate to call myself Christian in light of that but it muddies the understanding that other (actual) Christians have. Really, I would only call myself that to mess with the nice people with the ties and the name tags who knock on my door and don't listen the first time when I say, "No, thank you." I know some in the "ex-Mormon" crowd and they... have stronger opinions of religion. I can imagine some rather extreme implementations of "wariness" (read: "outright disdain") from an American in their late 20s to early 30s when it comes to Christianity.

cafard 4y ago

One can stretch a liturgy out without approaching the epic: sheer disorganization and even self-indulgence (of the choir, of the homilist) can contribute. I mention this because the same is true of movies.

User23 4y ago

To elaborate, for those who aren't familiar, the Easter Vigil when done in its long form includes nine readings instead of the usual 3, and they are considerably longer than the usual ones too. It's also traditionally when converts are accepted into the Church, which, depending on how many there are, can add to the time considerably. I say all of that to emphasize that it's not long because of a lack of pacing, but because there is a lot going on.

emptyfile 4y ago

[dead]