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Python has become the lowest common denominator. It's a practical "no-frills" language that can be picked quickly by a sysadmin, a web developer, a scientist do

Python has become the lowest common denominator. It's a practical "no-frills" language that can be picked quickly by a sysadmin, a web developer, a scientist doing number-crunching or a kid automating their homework.

pavlov 3y ago
The problem with the “no-frills” proposition is that it’s loaded with frills, complexities, and decades of tech debt. Just installing dependencies for a Python project can feel insurmountable. IMO JavaScript should be the default for any Python use case. It has the same deceptive veneer of beginner-friendly dynamic behavior, same kinds of footguns; but at least JS has a single package manager, much faster optimized engines, and you’d have to learn it for front-end work anyway so it has long-term dividends.
- alex_suzuki 3y ago
  One of things I really like about Python is the huge standard library. Contrary to JavaScript (which I think is a really weird recommendation), where you need to npm install half the world.
  - nomdep 3y ago
    It wouldn’t matter if those dependencies where stable, but JS has a culture of abandon libraries or to make backward-breaking changes every week, so upgrading a project after just a few months is a major pain
    - DeathArrow 3y ago
      That's what I learned when I had to do front-end development using Angular: never upgrade packages.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    And you never know if package Y required by package X will break the security of your app.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Having used both Python and JS, the only real benefit the latter has it may be faster. The language has way too many gotchas. I wish they could shed all the legacy aspects to it. My experience with Python, along with many other folks, is that if we don't know something (API, syntax, etc), we often just guess it and it turns out to be right. Fairly intuitive. Agree with the other commenter: Using pip + venv tends to solve the majority of packaging problems. In my career I deal with a Python dependency headache once every few years. > and you’d have to learn it for front-end work anyway so it has long-term dividends. Except when you don't do front-end work ;-)
  - nephanth 3y ago
    Poetry does a good job for package management
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  I've learned Javascript and a framework or two and I hate it with passion. I patiently wait for the moment in which we can manipulate DOM from within Weabassembly. Meanwhile I shamelessly push for Blazor for front-end, wherever I can.
nephanth 3y ago
Python is absolutely not a "no-frills" language. It is loaded with features, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of python programmers don't know all language features (even relatively old and frequently used ones like metaclasses) and that virtually nobody knows the whole stdlib
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Additionally if one cares about performance, knowing C or C++ is also a must.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    When was the last decade someone cared about performance?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Apparently everyone that writes native libraries to be called from Python, while calling them Python libraries.

pavlov 3y ago

The problem with the “no-frills” proposition is that it’s loaded with frills, complexities, and decades of tech debt. Just installing dependencies for a Python project can feel insurmountable. IMO JavaScript should be the default for any Python use case. It has the same deceptive veneer of beginner-friendly dynamic behavior, same kinds of footguns; but at least JS has a single package manager, much faster optimized engines, and you’d have to learn it for front-end work anyway so it has long-term dividends.

alex_suzuki 3y ago
One of things I really like about Python is the huge standard library. Contrary to JavaScript (which I think is a really weird recommendation), where you need to npm install half the world.
- nomdep 3y ago
  It wouldn’t matter if those dependencies where stable, but JS has a culture of abandon libraries or to make backward-breaking changes every week, so upgrading a project after just a few months is a major pain
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    That's what I learned when I had to do front-end development using Angular: never upgrade packages.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  And you never know if package Y required by package X will break the security of your app.
BeetleB 3y ago
Having used both Python and JS, the only real benefit the latter has it may be faster. The language has way too many gotchas. I wish they could shed all the legacy aspects to it. My experience with Python, along with many other folks, is that if we don't know something (API, syntax, etc), we often just guess it and it turns out to be right. Fairly intuitive. Agree with the other commenter: Using pip + venv tends to solve the majority of packaging problems. In my career I deal with a Python dependency headache once every few years. > and you’d have to learn it for front-end work anyway so it has long-term dividends. Except when you don't do front-end work ;-)
- nephanth 3y ago
  Poetry does a good job for package management
DeathArrow 3y ago
I've learned Javascript and a framework or two and I hate it with passion. I patiently wait for the moment in which we can manipulate DOM from within Weabassembly. Meanwhile I shamelessly push for Blazor for front-end, wherever I can.

nephanth 3y ago

Python is absolutely not a "no-frills" language. It is loaded with features, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of python programmers don't know all language features (even relatively old and frequently used ones like metaclasses) and that virtually nobody knows the whole stdlib

pjmlp 3y ago
Additionally if one cares about performance, knowing C or C++ is also a must.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  When was the last decade someone cared about performance?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Apparently everyone that writes native libraries to be called from Python, while calling them Python libraries.