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> Having had to work in a large pascal codebase, I don't ever want to use this language again. Maybe Pascal isn't good for large code bases, but the same is tr

> Having had to work in a large pascal codebase, I don't ever want to use this language again. Maybe Pascal isn't good for large code bases, but the same is true for Python, too. And nobody hates Python.

pjmlp 4y ago
ISO Pascal isn't, but Object Pascal and Modula-2 definitly are. Unfortunely most complaints about Pascal keep being reduced to that 1970 version of the language.
- Tozen 4y ago
  Totally agree. Various people seem to be out of touch with modern developments, misinformed, or are being disingenuous (as really advocates for a competing language). A lot of the discussions surrounding Pascal are as if Object Pascal (and its dialects), Delphi, Lazarus, or Oxygene (RemObjects) don't exist or never happened.
- acegopher 4y ago
  Or the seemingly lost successor, Oberon. An entire graphical OS and compiler was written in, and completely documented, in a book: "Project Oberon: The Design of an Operating System and Compiler" [0] [0] https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/PO.System.pdf https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/PO.System.pdf
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Do you consider Modula-2 to be a Pascal? But yes, modern stuff should not be judged by the 1970 edition. I got soured on Pascal by having to use an ISO standard compiler on an embedded system; it was painful in several areas. But I shouldn't judge modern C by pre-ANSI C, or modern C++ by cfront. So, while I still say that ISO Pascal was deeply flawed, I shouldn't hold that against all Pascal versions.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Nicklaus Wirth considers Modula-2 as Pascal evolution, so there is that. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1238844.1238847 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1238844.1238847
pavlov 4y ago
I hate Python, and I've met others who feel the same. It's a language which had a reason to exist 25 years ago, but has since been surpassed in every way by other faster, more robust, more compatible languages that don't have such quirky syntax. So a lot like Pascal actually. (To be fair to Pascal, its syntax wasn't anything as inconsistent and frustrating as Python's.)
- alex_suzuki 4y ago
  I don’t understand how programming languages can get so much hate. If you don’t like it, don’t use it…
  - anon35 4y ago
    Surely you can appreciate that the language you're using isn't always your choice.
    - alex_suzuki 4y ago
      Yes, I do understand that, having programmed in business environments with legacy code for over a decade. I've hated the poor decisions my predecessors had to make, the corners that were cut. I've hated that it's not maintained or documented. I've hated that it doesn't have tests. Never have I hated the language.
    - hughw 4y ago
      And that sometimes, you make the wrong choice, and grow to hate that language.
    - DeathArrow 4y ago
      Not always, but the most languages I have used professionally were my choices. That means x86, assembly, C, C++, C#, Python and half of Javascript. For Javascript I mean half because I enjoyed doing simple things in JS on front-end long time ago, but these days I kind of dislike JS frameworks and I've learned them because I had to after I signed some contracts. I could have stayed 100% with backend work, but now is too late to complain. I managed to steer clear of Perl, Objective C, Cobol and other languages I don't enjoy. I managed to learn F# and some Ocaml which I would like to use but never got the chance (personal projects excluded).
The_Colonel 4y ago
I don't hate it, but it's just mediocre. Python is fine for short scripting as long as you don't need dependencies (which still remains rocket science in Python world), at that point it's better to look elsewhere.
- rsyring 4y ago
  Dependencies in Python have been sorted for years. Pip works great for install and pip-tools compile works great for locking. Please stop spreading this untruth.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    The existence of poetry, hatch, pdm, etc. (and lately rye) is proof that "just use pip-tools" isn't consensus.
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    It is a current truth that there are modern apps of interest to me written in Python that I can't install because I need some special dependency manager or environment manager or something and it looks like I will do serious harm to my system environment if I follow the installation instructions.
    - maleldil 4y ago
      I'm not sure I understand you. If the project uses something "special" like poetry, hatch, pdm, etc., you only need to install those for development. If you simply want to use the project, they all should be installable directly with pip, as they all have pep517-compatible backends. Even then, how can installing those tools harm your system? You can always use pipx and have each tool be installed in its own virtual environment.
  - nrclark 4y ago
    My biggest problem with pip-compile is that it's really slow. Pip-compile runs can take upwards of 20 minutes, depending on how many dependencies your project has. We use it because we don't have any alternative. I'd really love to have a faster tool though.
ihatepython 4y ago
Yeah, nobody hates Python
codr7 4y ago
Except for anyone who has worked in a large Python code base. I would take almost any other language, including Pascal, over Python for anything beyond a page of code.
sdfghswe 4y ago
Nobody hates python? The more I use julia, the more I hate python. Which is a lot by now.
aidenn0 4y ago
Python is the Settlers of Catan of programming languages. Most people have a different favorite game they would rather play, but enough people don't hate it that you end up playing it anyways.

pjmlp 4y ago

ISO Pascal isn't, but Object Pascal and Modula-2 definitly are. Unfortunely most complaints about Pascal keep being reduced to that 1970 version of the language.

Tozen 4y ago
Totally agree. Various people seem to be out of touch with modern developments, misinformed, or are being disingenuous (as really advocates for a competing language). A lot of the discussions surrounding Pascal are as if Object Pascal (and its dialects), Delphi, Lazarus, or Oxygene (RemObjects) don't exist or never happened.
acegopher 4y ago
Or the seemingly lost successor, Oberon. An entire graphical OS and compiler was written in, and completely documented, in a book: "Project Oberon: The Design of an Operating System and Compiler" [0] [0] https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/PO.System.pdf https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/PO.System.pdf
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Do you consider Modula-2 to be a Pascal? But yes, modern stuff should not be judged by the 1970 edition. I got soured on Pascal by having to use an ISO standard compiler on an embedded system; it was painful in several areas. But I shouldn't judge modern C by pre-ANSI C, or modern C++ by cfront. So, while I still say that ISO Pascal was deeply flawed, I shouldn't hold that against all Pascal versions.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Nicklaus Wirth considers Modula-2 as Pascal evolution, so there is that. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1238844.1238847 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1238844.1238847

pavlov 4y ago

I hate Python, and I've met others who feel the same. It's a language which had a reason to exist 25 years ago, but has since been surpassed in every way by other faster, more robust, more compatible languages that don't have such quirky syntax. So a lot like Pascal actually. (To be fair to Pascal, its syntax wasn't anything as inconsistent and frustrating as Python's.)

alex_suzuki 4y ago
I don’t understand how programming languages can get so much hate. If you don’t like it, don’t use it…
- anon35 4y ago
  Surely you can appreciate that the language you're using isn't always your choice.
  - alex_suzuki 4y ago
    Yes, I do understand that, having programmed in business environments with legacy code for over a decade. I've hated the poor decisions my predecessors had to make, the corners that were cut. I've hated that it's not maintained or documented. I've hated that it doesn't have tests. Never have I hated the language.
  - hughw 4y ago
    And that sometimes, you make the wrong choice, and grow to hate that language.
  - DeathArrow 4y ago
    Not always, but the most languages I have used professionally were my choices. That means x86, assembly, C, C++, C#, Python and half of Javascript. For Javascript I mean half because I enjoyed doing simple things in JS on front-end long time ago, but these days I kind of dislike JS frameworks and I've learned them because I had to after I signed some contracts. I could have stayed 100% with backend work, but now is too late to complain. I managed to steer clear of Perl, Objective C, Cobol and other languages I don't enjoy. I managed to learn F# and some Ocaml which I would like to use but never got the chance (personal projects excluded).

The_Colonel 4y ago

I don't hate it, but it's just mediocre. Python is fine for short scripting as long as you don't need dependencies (which still remains rocket science in Python world), at that point it's better to look elsewhere.

rsyring 4y ago
Dependencies in Python have been sorted for years. Pip works great for install and pip-tools compile works great for locking. Please stop spreading this untruth.
- maleldil 4y ago
  The existence of poetry, hatch, pdm, etc. (and lately rye) is proof that "just use pip-tools" isn't consensus.
- supportlocal4h 4y ago
  It is a current truth that there are modern apps of interest to me written in Python that I can't install because I need some special dependency manager or environment manager or something and it looks like I will do serious harm to my system environment if I follow the installation instructions.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    I'm not sure I understand you. If the project uses something "special" like poetry, hatch, pdm, etc., you only need to install those for development. If you simply want to use the project, they all should be installable directly with pip, as they all have pep517-compatible backends. Even then, how can installing those tools harm your system? You can always use pipx and have each tool be installed in its own virtual environment.
- nrclark 4y ago
  My biggest problem with pip-compile is that it's really slow. Pip-compile runs can take upwards of 20 minutes, depending on how many dependencies your project has. We use it because we don't have any alternative. I'd really love to have a faster tool though.

ihatepython 4y ago

Yeah, nobody hates Python

codr7 4y ago

Except for anyone who has worked in a large Python code base. I would take almost any other language, including Pascal, over Python for anything beyond a page of code.

sdfghswe 4y ago

Nobody hates python? The more I use julia, the more I hate python. Which is a lot by now.

aidenn0 4y ago

Python is the Settlers of Catan of programming languages. Most people have a different favorite game they would rather play, but enough people don't hate it that you end up playing it anyways.