5 ms·

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

ghaff 3y ago
It probably depends on the specifics. In Asia, I've known a fair number of Europeans who have lived there for a significant period of time and I would still think of them as expats.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  I thought the "joke" was that expats are white, immigrants are not?
  - WeylandYutani 3y ago
    I make a distinction between a highly educated Japanese person working at a university and a boat refugee from Sudan. Got nothing to do with race. We are a civilised people we judge on economics.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      And you never let race be a shorthand for economics either.
      - CRConrad 3y ago
        Naah, they use method of conveyance for that. Expats are yacht refugees, not boat.
  - te_chris 3y ago
    Definitely true on the whole, but perhaps identity is not the most productive lens to look through. As a white expat/immigrant to the UK, I think it's more about whether you've committed to never returning. It's a very different mindset I find, between those who've moved and are staying put, vs those with the idea of leaving in the back of their minds. The privilege of the expat is being able to hedge for a very long time.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Still "immigrants" get accused of hedging their bets while still not afforded the "expat" moniker. "Immigrants won't commit to their new country" "They move their wealth abroad" etc.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I think that's fair. With respect to Westerners living in Asia there is also definitely a language/culture thing with stereotypical expats mostly hanging out with other expats and going to expat bars, restaurants, etc.
andrepd 3y ago
Expats are rich, immigrants are poor.
treis 3y ago
Its both: Leave Country A for Country B = expat Move to Country B from Country A = immigrant The words mean exactly the same. It's just which perspective you want to highlight. Whether you left a place or moved to a place.
- bradknowles 3y ago
  My wife and I were ex-pats when we lived and worked in Belgium for almost eight years. Her employer was originally a subsidiary of JP Morgan, and she was paid as an American living in Brussels. I was brought along as her spouse (although we were actually only engaged at that point), and I was able to find work locally (at Belgacom Skynet, the ISP arm of the former PTT for the country). My wife got a very rare "unlimited stay" work permit. Come almost eight years later and we were eligible to apply for Belgian citizenship. Her employer had been spun off into a Belgian company, and they were not willing to continue to pay her as an ex-pat. So, it didn't make financial sense for us to remain in the country. So, we moved back to the US. We never had any plans to permanently move to Belgium, so we weren't immigrants. But it was fun being ex-pats for a while.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  If you have brown skin, you're an economic migrant. If you have pink skin, you're an ex-pat.
  - gumby 3y ago
    I have a parent from each of those categories and can confirm from this natural A/B test that that’s how they are treated.
- Xixi 3y ago
  I might have been traumatized by US visa process, but in my mind "immigrant" has a very specific meaning: moving to a country with the intent of settling there permanently. And the US is very strict on that meaning: when I went to the US my work visa was explicitly non-immigrant, and calling myself an immigrant at the US embassy when applying for the visa, or while crossing the US border would have resulted in the denial of my visa, or the denial of my entry in the US. At least that's what the attorney drilled into my head... Expat literally means "living outside of your homeland". So by definition an immigrant is an expat, but an expat is not necessarily an immigrant. Sometimes expat is used in a stricter sense (also called "true expat") to refer to people sent abroad by their employer on usually very very favorable packages (the "expat packages"): everything paid (rent in prime neighborhoods, private schools for kids, plane tickets to visit home, etc.), on top of an indemnity for living abroad, on top of the regular salary paid home. In my case I was an expat in the United States (only went there to work, no intention to stay), but then I immigrated to Japan (now a permanent resident, no intention to leave). It would have been wrong to call me an immigrant in the US, but I am both an expat and an immigrant in Japan.
worklaptopacct 3y ago
To me it's more or less: if you move countries with an intent to stay, then you're an immigrant. Otherwise, you're an expat. Of course an expat my become an immigrant if they decide to take roots in a place.
- joaonmatos 3y ago
  I’ve seen retired Brits live in southern Spain and Portugal for 20+ years calling themselves expats and not making any effort to integrate, even though they have all the intent of staying there and not returning to England. So expat/immigrant seems like a very social/economic background distinction.

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

ghaff 3y ago

It probably depends on the specifics. In Asia, I've known a fair number of Europeans who have lived there for a significant period of time and I would still think of them as expats.

actionfromafar 3y ago
I thought the "joke" was that expats are white, immigrants are not?
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  I make a distinction between a highly educated Japanese person working at a university and a boat refugee from Sudan. Got nothing to do with race. We are a civilised people we judge on economics.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    And you never let race be a shorthand for economics either.
    - CRConrad 3y ago
      Naah, they use method of conveyance for that. Expats are yacht refugees, not boat.
- te_chris 3y ago
  Definitely true on the whole, but perhaps identity is not the most productive lens to look through. As a white expat/immigrant to the UK, I think it's more about whether you've committed to never returning. It's a very different mindset I find, between those who've moved and are staying put, vs those with the idea of leaving in the back of their minds. The privilege of the expat is being able to hedge for a very long time.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Still "immigrants" get accused of hedging their bets while still not afforded the "expat" moniker. "Immigrants won't commit to their new country" "They move their wealth abroad" etc.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I think that's fair. With respect to Westerners living in Asia there is also definitely a language/culture thing with stereotypical expats mostly hanging out with other expats and going to expat bars, restaurants, etc.

andrepd 3y ago

Expats are rich, immigrants are poor.

treis 3y ago

Its both: Leave Country A for Country B = expat Move to Country B from Country A = immigrant The words mean exactly the same. It's just which perspective you want to highlight. Whether you left a place or moved to a place.

bradknowles 3y ago
My wife and I were ex-pats when we lived and worked in Belgium for almost eight years. Her employer was originally a subsidiary of JP Morgan, and she was paid as an American living in Brussels. I was brought along as her spouse (although we were actually only engaged at that point), and I was able to find work locally (at Belgacom Skynet, the ISP arm of the former PTT for the country). My wife got a very rare "unlimited stay" work permit. Come almost eight years later and we were eligible to apply for Belgian citizenship. Her employer had been spun off into a Belgian company, and they were not willing to continue to pay her as an ex-pat. So, it didn't make financial sense for us to remain in the country. So, we moved back to the US. We never had any plans to permanently move to Belgium, so we weren't immigrants. But it was fun being ex-pats for a while.
tuatoru 3y ago
If you have brown skin, you're an economic migrant. If you have pink skin, you're an ex-pat.
- gumby 3y ago
  I have a parent from each of those categories and can confirm from this natural A/B test that that’s how they are treated.
Xixi 3y ago
I might have been traumatized by US visa process, but in my mind "immigrant" has a very specific meaning: moving to a country with the intent of settling there permanently. And the US is very strict on that meaning: when I went to the US my work visa was explicitly non-immigrant, and calling myself an immigrant at the US embassy when applying for the visa, or while crossing the US border would have resulted in the denial of my visa, or the denial of my entry in the US. At least that's what the attorney drilled into my head... Expat literally means "living outside of your homeland". So by definition an immigrant is an expat, but an expat is not necessarily an immigrant. Sometimes expat is used in a stricter sense (also called "true expat") to refer to people sent abroad by their employer on usually very very favorable packages (the "expat packages"): everything paid (rent in prime neighborhoods, private schools for kids, plane tickets to visit home, etc.), on top of an indemnity for living abroad, on top of the regular salary paid home. In my case I was an expat in the United States (only went there to work, no intention to stay), but then I immigrated to Japan (now a permanent resident, no intention to leave). It would have been wrong to call me an immigrant in the US, but I am both an expat and an immigrant in Japan.

worklaptopacct 3y ago

To me it's more or less: if you move countries with an intent to stay, then you're an immigrant. Otherwise, you're an expat. Of course an expat my become an immigrant if they decide to take roots in a place.

joaonmatos 3y ago
I’ve seen retired Brits live in southern Spain and Portugal for 20+ years calling themselves expats and not making any effort to integrate, even though they have all the intent of staying there and not returning to England. So expat/immigrant seems like a very social/economic background distinction.