4 ms·

This is probably not even the right debate to be having. It's just the debate or goal that historically oppressed and mistreated groups feel is maybe attainable

This is probably not even the right debate to be having. It's just the debate or goal that historically oppressed and mistreated groups feel is maybe attainable. In a world where Black Americans can't reasonably expect the authorities to not shoot them essentially for being Black in America, they can ask for racist, pro-slavery symbols or guns or similar to be edited out of popular fiction or removed from public spaces in the form of statues and maybe get it. I recall reading that some Black artist was told his song about wanting to kill the cops was not okay. Cops can kill Blacks. Blacks can't sing about how that makes them feel. So not all people are equally allowed to express their artistic vision or their feelings or their lived reality and it's too much to ask to be treated like human beings or even allowed a voice of their own, so the ask is for others to tone it down as a hoped for step in the right direction. I don't know what the solution is. I wish we (in the US) fed people in prison better and had enough decent affordable housing for starters but even those modest goals seem completely out of reach.

pookah 4y ago
LOL. I'll see if I can add to this Maoist word salad... We shouldn't just want to "step in the right direction" we should make a great leap forward. We should have a cultural revolution and bombard the headquarters and chill for a while... Maybe have a long-march.
- dang 4y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
lesquivemeau 4y ago
I'm not sure i get your point. > Blacks can't sing about how that makes them feel. So not all people are equally allowed to express their artistic vision or their feelings... Okay, freedom of speech is (de jure) universal, and should be (de facto) universal, i think we can agree on that. > so the ask is for others to tone it down as a hoped for step in the right direction I don't think asking people to not express themselves would be a step in the right direction. Isn't that the opposite of freedom of expression ?
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  My very first sentence is "This is probably not even the right debate to be having." And then I tried to describe why it seems to be happening. I don't know what you are missing that you think I'm arguing for censorship.
_8j50 4y ago
major streaming platforms and the criterion collection stream and promote "birth of a nation" because "art". What utter willful ignorance this is! I use that example because that "work of art" is largely responsible for the revival of the clan. Artists like to think art depicts life but the opposite is also true, art influences the world around us. Even something silly like censoring curse words and nudity based on modern sensibilities is an attempt to control art's harmful influence on the world around us. Speilberg's comments are the equivalent of a famous Chef claiming health regulations on restaurants should not be made by modern understanding of medicine and food safety.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  argument by analogy is generally pretty faulty, but gosh, it's probably the absolute worst to make the analogy between food - a perishable thing that will go bad extremely quickly and directly kill people with food poisoning when it does - and artistic expression - non-perishable works that can theoretically last forever and that does not directly kill people unless the statue of Michelangelo's David falls on top of them.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    I thought the KKK killed a lot of people? Lol. Argument by analogy is not faulty, analogies are an excellent tool to point out faults in rationale someone is using that has hidden or ignored biases. You like movies by spielberg, that's nice. But gun culture in the US for example is the fault of hollywood including Spielberg. It isn't the 2nd amendment, it is media that promoted the idea that everyone should have automatic guns. It is media that spits out dozens of cop tv shows where cops are always the good guys and even more movies where cops can break the law and do whatever they want because they're the good guys and it was a TV show that popularized donald trump. The list is endless. To say content in artisitic material causes less harm than food poisoning at restaurants is incorrect. There is plenty of media censored from even adults because of its harmful nature. The litmus test of censorship is harm that will be caused. If modern sensibilities determine that media will cause harm then of course it should be revised and censored. If age of consent increases to 21 20yrs from now for example, isn't displaying nude images of 19yr olds a crime after that time? And wouldn't that be censored and removed?
throwaway384418 4y ago
>I recall reading that some Black artist was told his song about wanting to kill the cops was not okay. Cops can kill Blacks. Blacks can't sing about how that makes them feel. If a black person killed someone close to me and I released my newest single about how I want to murder black people would it get published? Doubt it. Besides it's not like cops are allowed to kill black people either.
- dalbasal 4y ago
  How about politicians? Bob Dylan told them he'd "stand over their grave to make sure that you're dead." Springstein disparaged congressmen's children. If cops get protection from hate speech... why not politicians?
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
  Theoretically you’re right but you’re denying the reality on the ground, which is the context of the debate and which you are taking out. Sure, cops are not allowed to kill black people but the reality is that black people are being treated unequally and that can be statistically backed up. I keep hearing arguments like what you mentioned and I can’t help taking it as a dismissal of black people’s struggles and an unkind disinterest to suffering that you do not personally experience. And if a black person does kill someone you love, why would you even think about black people in the same way as cops, when “black people” aren’t some public entity armed by the state to do the job of protecting people of all colors? You’re misrepresenting the issue. The only way to channel your hatred against an ethnic group that doesn’t have statutory power over you is to become racist.
  - cmh89 4y ago
    >Sure, cops are not allowed to kill black people But they de facto are in many cases. Cops can generally kill at will and without real justification and not face consequences. It's only in rare cases when public outcry is enough, like in the slaying of George Floyd, where prosecutors will even attempt to hold cops accountable.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
herbstein 4y ago
I'm reminded of an interlude on the latest album from Punk/Grime artist "Bob Vylan". I said the neighbours called me **** Station said they can't play that [..] Same old stories, nothing new told Appear to speak truth but don't be too bold They say make a song for the radio Hey ho something to play on the day show Your music upsets advertisers It's 'bout the Peso, what they say goes They were left out of significant airplay because their breakout hit tells the story about how the lead, as a half-black brit with a white mom, has been called the N-word and told to go back to "where he comes from". The breakout hit is called "We Live Here", for those curious.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Thank you.
cubefox 4y ago
Blacks aren't killed more by the police relative to their crime rate. Statistics show that blacks have a much higher crime rate than other demographics. They are not the victims here.

pookah 4y ago

LOL. I'll see if I can add to this Maoist word salad... We shouldn't just want to "step in the right direction" we should make a great leap forward. We should have a cultural revolution and bombard the headquarters and chill for a while... Maybe have a long-march.

dang 4y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

lesquivemeau 4y ago

I'm not sure i get your point. > Blacks can't sing about how that makes them feel. So not all people are equally allowed to express their artistic vision or their feelings... Okay, freedom of speech is (de jure) universal, and should be (de facto) universal, i think we can agree on that. > so the ask is for others to tone it down as a hoped for step in the right direction I don't think asking people to not express themselves would be a step in the right direction. Isn't that the opposite of freedom of expression ?

DoreenMichele 4y ago
My very first sentence is "This is probably not even the right debate to be having." And then I tried to describe why it seems to be happening. I don't know what you are missing that you think I'm arguing for censorship.

_8j50 4y ago

major streaming platforms and the criterion collection stream and promote "birth of a nation" because "art". What utter willful ignorance this is! I use that example because that "work of art" is largely responsible for the revival of the clan. Artists like to think art depicts life but the opposite is also true, art influences the world around us. Even something silly like censoring curse words and nudity based on modern sensibilities is an attempt to control art's harmful influence on the world around us. Speilberg's comments are the equivalent of a famous Chef claiming health regulations on restaurants should not be made by modern understanding of medicine and food safety.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago
argument by analogy is generally pretty faulty, but gosh, it's probably the absolute worst to make the analogy between food - a perishable thing that will go bad extremely quickly and directly kill people with food poisoning when it does - and artistic expression - non-perishable works that can theoretically last forever and that does not directly kill people unless the statue of Michelangelo's David falls on top of them.
- _8j50 4y ago
  I thought the KKK killed a lot of people? Lol. Argument by analogy is not faulty, analogies are an excellent tool to point out faults in rationale someone is using that has hidden or ignored biases. You like movies by spielberg, that's nice. But gun culture in the US for example is the fault of hollywood including Spielberg. It isn't the 2nd amendment, it is media that promoted the idea that everyone should have automatic guns. It is media that spits out dozens of cop tv shows where cops are always the good guys and even more movies where cops can break the law and do whatever they want because they're the good guys and it was a TV show that popularized donald trump. The list is endless. To say content in artisitic material causes less harm than food poisoning at restaurants is incorrect. There is plenty of media censored from even adults because of its harmful nature. The litmus test of censorship is harm that will be caused. If modern sensibilities determine that media will cause harm then of course it should be revised and censored. If age of consent increases to 21 20yrs from now for example, isn't displaying nude images of 19yr olds a crime after that time? And wouldn't that be censored and removed?

throwaway384418 4y ago

>I recall reading that some Black artist was told his song about wanting to kill the cops was not okay. Cops can kill Blacks. Blacks can't sing about how that makes them feel. If a black person killed someone close to me and I released my newest single about how I want to murder black people would it get published? Doubt it. Besides it's not like cops are allowed to kill black people either.

dalbasal 4y ago
How about politicians? Bob Dylan told them he'd "stand over their grave to make sure that you're dead." Springstein disparaged congressmen's children. If cops get protection from hate speech... why not politicians?
rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
Theoretically you’re right but you’re denying the reality on the ground, which is the context of the debate and which you are taking out. Sure, cops are not allowed to kill black people but the reality is that black people are being treated unequally and that can be statistically backed up. I keep hearing arguments like what you mentioned and I can’t help taking it as a dismissal of black people’s struggles and an unkind disinterest to suffering that you do not personally experience. And if a black person does kill someone you love, why would you even think about black people in the same way as cops, when “black people” aren’t some public entity armed by the state to do the job of protecting people of all colors? You’re misrepresenting the issue. The only way to channel your hatred against an ethnic group that doesn’t have statutory power over you is to become racist.
- cmh89 4y ago
  >Sure, cops are not allowed to kill black people But they de facto are in many cases. Cops can generally kill at will and without real justification and not face consequences. It's only in rare cases when public outcry is enough, like in the slaying of George Floyd, where prosecutors will even attempt to hold cops accountable.
DoreenMichele 4y ago

herbstein 4y ago

I'm reminded of an interlude on the latest album from Punk/Grime artist "Bob Vylan". I said the neighbours called me **** Station said they can't play that [..] Same old stories, nothing new told Appear to speak truth but don't be too bold They say make a song for the radio Hey ho something to play on the day show Your music upsets advertisers It's 'bout the Peso, what they say goes They were left out of significant airplay because their breakout hit tells the story about how the lead, as a half-black brit with a white mom, has been called the N-word and told to go back to "where he comes from". The breakout hit is called "We Live Here", for those curious.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
Thank you.

cubefox 4y ago

Blacks aren't killed more by the police relative to their crime rate. Statistics show that blacks have a much higher crime rate than other demographics. They are not the victims here.