4 ms·

I'm with her. Once proponents of allegedly more ecological alternative products come up with their own names, I'll start considering them. Not being able to mar

I'm with her. Once proponents of allegedly more ecological alternative products come up with their own names, I'll start considering them. Not being able to market their products on their own merits and instead piggybacking on popular categories like milk, steak, meat, burger, etc., usually just means that you won't get what you're looking for.

crummy 3y ago
Wikipedia says 'In English, the word "milk" has been used to refer to "milk-like plant juices" since 1200 CE' so I think that boat sailed a long time ago.
- tgv 3y ago
  As an argument, that's rather thin. You'd need to show that it has been used "often" over the last decade or so to argue that it is common usage. That said, the use of coconut milk would suffice to prove your point. Steak, burger, meat, etc., don't fall in this category, but personally, I find vegan burger more understandable than the technically/conventionally more precise plant-based patty. It also doesn't distract from the original word: if something is called burger, you can be pretty sure it's meat.
- silisili 3y ago
  I'm not against that definition, but neither soybeans nor almonds produce any 'milk-like plant juices.'
  - tecleandor 3y ago
    Soybean, almond, rice, tiger nut... milks are basically the product and some extra water, and the result is milk-like.
    - malermeister 3y ago
      But that's not a juice then. It's plant solids dissolved/emulsified in water. "Juice" would mean that the liquid itself came from the plant.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    ... because they produce milk?
  - creatonez 3y ago
    Here's a macronutrient comparison: 1 cup of dairy milk: Calories: 149 Protein: 8 grams Fat: 8 grams Carbohydrates: 12 grams Fiber: 0 grams Sugar: 12 grams 1 cup of Almond Milk: Calories: 40 Protein: 1 gram Fat: 3 grams Carbohydrates: 2 grams Fiber: 1 gram Sugar: 0 grams 1 cup of soy milk: Calories: 100 Protein: 7 grams Fat: 4 grams Carbohydrates: 8 grams Fiber: 1 gram Sugar: 6 grams Soy milk is not too far off. Almond milk seems to be more diluted and has no simple sugars, so it might be the outlier here. Still has a decent amount of fat, more than I expected, but half as much isn't going to satisfy some people.
vineyardmike 3y ago
But fake “milk” is used basically as a drop in replacement for milk. For example, I take “oat milk” in my coffee every morning. Realistically, most would never have tried it if it was “liquid oat product for coffee” (since you presumably can’t call it “creamer” even though that also contains no dairy). This edict is also totality ignoring that “soy milk” is quite old and has long retained that name to minimal confusion. I haven’t seen anyone claim to make a fake steak using the word “steak”. I have seen “impossible burgers” but IMO “burger” is a food shape like “sandwich” or “pie”. I’ve also never seen “fake meat” use any wording to imply it’s meat. In fact, “meat substitute” is a pretty common phrase that is also apt in describing it exactly on its own merits. To be clear, replacing a popular category 1:1 is the merit.
- jonathanstrange 3y ago
  That's exactly what I mean by "come up with their own names" - "liquid oat product for coffee" sounds terrible. The least you can expect is for them to come up with a good name. The Indian cuisine has come up with their own vegan and vegetarian food for 2000 years, it's delicious, and they don't need to call it "vegan sausages." The problem I have with all these products (as a frequent consumer) is that you never know what you get. Some fake meat is delicious, other sorts are horrible, almost inedible. Soy "milk" makes me throw my guts out, almond "milk" tastes great.
  - unmole 3y ago
    > The Indian cuisine has come up with their own vegan Veganism is virtually unheard of in India. We love our milk.
silisili 3y ago
Not sure why so downvoted. My kid said a neighbor had almond milk in his fridge, and she hated it. I asked her how she would milk an almond, playing dumbfounded. She said she doesn't think you can, and it's probably just almonds in water. And I told her she's probably right, and it's not milk. She loves milk, fwiw. Consider her one pissed off consumer. Why are these jackasses trying to piggyback?
- latexr 3y ago
  The anecdote isn’t relevant. Had it been called “almond drink” or “zarplof munksie” the outcome would’ve been the same.
  - silisili 3y ago
    If it were called zarplof munksie, she likely wouldn't have asked for a glass.
tecleandor 3y ago
Well eeeeh, I'd say that's not a great point. If we're strict with etymology, maybe maybe those meat products should stop piggybacking and come with their own names. I'm pretty sure McDonald's patties aren't coming from Hamburg. The old english origin for meat meant "food", for steak meant "fry or roast"... and lots of those words have been used since looong time ago to refer to similar substances or that look alike, i.e. milk. Also, using vegetable products isn't only because of being "allegedly more ecological", there are lot's of different reasons, typically : can't/shouldn't/won't eat animal products of some or all kinds. Or, just liking them, you know.

crummy 3y ago

Wikipedia says 'In English, the word "milk" has been used to refer to "milk-like plant juices" since 1200 CE' so I think that boat sailed a long time ago.

tgv 3y ago
As an argument, that's rather thin. You'd need to show that it has been used "often" over the last decade or so to argue that it is common usage. That said, the use of coconut milk would suffice to prove your point. Steak, burger, meat, etc., don't fall in this category, but personally, I find vegan burger more understandable than the technically/conventionally more precise plant-based patty. It also doesn't distract from the original word: if something is called burger, you can be pretty sure it's meat.
silisili 3y ago
I'm not against that definition, but neither soybeans nor almonds produce any 'milk-like plant juices.'
- tecleandor 3y ago
  Soybean, almond, rice, tiger nut... milks are basically the product and some extra water, and the result is milk-like.
  - malermeister 3y ago
    But that's not a juice then. It's plant solids dissolved/emulsified in water. "Juice" would mean that the liquid itself came from the plant.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  ... because they produce milk?
- creatonez 3y ago
  Here's a macronutrient comparison: 1 cup of dairy milk: Calories: 149 Protein: 8 grams Fat: 8 grams Carbohydrates: 12 grams Fiber: 0 grams Sugar: 12 grams 1 cup of Almond Milk: Calories: 40 Protein: 1 gram Fat: 3 grams Carbohydrates: 2 grams Fiber: 1 gram Sugar: 0 grams 1 cup of soy milk: Calories: 100 Protein: 7 grams Fat: 4 grams Carbohydrates: 8 grams Fiber: 1 gram Sugar: 6 grams Soy milk is not too far off. Almond milk seems to be more diluted and has no simple sugars, so it might be the outlier here. Still has a decent amount of fat, more than I expected, but half as much isn't going to satisfy some people.

vineyardmike 3y ago

But fake “milk” is used basically as a drop in replacement for milk. For example, I take “oat milk” in my coffee every morning. Realistically, most would never have tried it if it was “liquid oat product for coffee” (since you presumably can’t call it “creamer” even though that also contains no dairy). This edict is also totality ignoring that “soy milk” is quite old and has long retained that name to minimal confusion. I haven’t seen anyone claim to make a fake steak using the word “steak”. I have seen “impossible burgers” but IMO “burger” is a food shape like “sandwich” or “pie”. I’ve also never seen “fake meat” use any wording to imply it’s meat. In fact, “meat substitute” is a pretty common phrase that is also apt in describing it exactly on its own merits. To be clear, replacing a popular category 1:1 is the merit.

jonathanstrange 3y ago
That's exactly what I mean by "come up with their own names" - "liquid oat product for coffee" sounds terrible. The least you can expect is for them to come up with a good name. The Indian cuisine has come up with their own vegan and vegetarian food for 2000 years, it's delicious, and they don't need to call it "vegan sausages." The problem I have with all these products (as a frequent consumer) is that you never know what you get. Some fake meat is delicious, other sorts are horrible, almost inedible. Soy "milk" makes me throw my guts out, almond "milk" tastes great.
- unmole 3y ago
  > The Indian cuisine has come up with their own vegan Veganism is virtually unheard of in India. We love our milk.

silisili 3y ago

Not sure why so downvoted. My kid said a neighbor had almond milk in his fridge, and she hated it. I asked her how she would milk an almond, playing dumbfounded. She said she doesn't think you can, and it's probably just almonds in water. And I told her she's probably right, and it's not milk. She loves milk, fwiw. Consider her one pissed off consumer. Why are these jackasses trying to piggyback?

latexr 3y ago
The anecdote isn’t relevant. Had it been called “almond drink” or “zarplof munksie” the outcome would’ve been the same.
- silisili 3y ago
  If it were called zarplof munksie, she likely wouldn't have asked for a glass.

tecleandor 3y ago

Well eeeeh, I'd say that's not a great point. If we're strict with etymology, maybe maybe those meat products should stop piggybacking and come with their own names. I'm pretty sure McDonald's patties aren't coming from Hamburg. The old english origin for meat meant "food", for steak meant "fry or roast"... and lots of those words have been used since looong time ago to refer to similar substances or that look alike, i.e. milk. Also, using vegetable products isn't only because of being "allegedly more ecological", there are lot's of different reasons, typically : can't/shouldn't/won't eat animal products of some or all kinds. Or, just liking them, you know.