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Google has more TVCs (temps, vendors, and contractors) than FTEs. By a good margin. Most of these people work 40 hours a week at Google. They do everything from

by habosa 4y ago

Google has more TVCs (temps, vendors, and contractors) than FTEs. By a good margin. Most of these people work 40 hours a week at Google. They do everything from kitchen work to program management to software engineering. They are often embedded in teams of FTEs and sit side by side with them. Yet Google leadership says that they’re not employees and they shouldn’t be. They don’t do work that’s part of Google’s “core competencies” or is “critical to Google’s mission”. What a load of horseshit. It’s an excuse to underpay and ignore 55% of your workforce. And it means that Google’s famous culture (what’s left of it) applies to only a minority of people who functionally work at Google every day. I’m generally not a big Google hater (especially among the HN crowd) but on this issue I can’t stay quiet. Google executives should be ashamed.

kethinov 4y ago
Can confirm. I was one such member of this underclass working as a developer on Gmail in 2007. The pay was quite low by bay area developer job standards at $25/hr with no benefits. I loved the work, the product, the people, my boss, the atmosphere of the Google campus in Mountain View, the free meals, etc, but I only stayed for a month. Once I got a better offer that paid twice as much, I was gone. To this day it's such a weird story to tell people. "You worked at Google?" "Yeah." "For how long?" "A month." "Whoa, really? Why? What happened?" "The pay was really low so I left for a higher paying job." "Google's pay... was too low...?" They say with disbelief. "Yep."
- techie128 3y ago
  You didn't work at Google. You CONTRACTED for Google. There is a BIG difference. Whenever someone claims they worked a company, the implicit assumption is that they were a FTE. I bet if you would've told people that you contracted at Google, their reaction would certainly be different.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    Meh, I think that varies quite a lot. If the only functional difference between your duties and that of the the rest of your team is your paperwork, then you worked there. The only time I specify whether something on my resume was a particular type of arrangement like contracting is if it would be weirdly short.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - esperent 3y ago
    Contract work is work. Especially when it's full time. I don't get why you're trying to make a distinction here?
    - j33zusjuice 3y ago
      Because everyone knows about that situation with contract positions. He did work at Google, and if he added that it was through a contractor when explaining that the salary was too low, people would not be confused.
birdymcbird 4y ago
>>> It’s an excuse to underpay and ignore 55% of your workforce. google isnt walmart or big business killing small store.. this comment like these people have no other job to work if google killed every other company and holding these workers hostage.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  All tech companies do this, so "choice" is more limited than you're implying.
- kentrado 4y ago
  Economic circumstances can keep people hostage.
jeswin 4y ago
Sorry, I don't agree. I've been a contractor for 2 decades (including on a Google project a very long time ago). It's a choice you make, and I'm quite happy with mine. There are of course upsides and downsides. If you want to join Google full-time, then you could apply for a full-time position there. If you don't like being a contractor at Google, then don't be one.
- eesmith 4y ago
  If there are downsides, do you ever try to change them? Your argument seems to be you should be a good little employee and never complain and never do anything to improve your work life, because your sole choice is to let your bosses dictate things, or leave. And it would seem you believe this so strongly that you want others to voluntarily reject legal opportunities they have to try and improve their work life. It seems your approach would only work for people like you who are quite happy with their job, while making a lot more people miserable.
  - the_overseer 3y ago
    Crab mentality is quite widespread in USA for some reason. "If you don't like it quit". Why not "If we don't like it then lets band together and unionize and get better terms on our deal" ?
    - LeanderK 3y ago
      I think it might also be the privilege of software engineers speaking. You can literally get another job, a permanent position with benefits, if you're unhappy with your current position. You probably just have to change your linkedin status, write a few former colleagues or tell it the world via twitter. This is not possible if you're working in the kitchen or cleaning. Sucks for you, right? You must be in this situation because you've chosen it, you can just switch jobs otherwise. In a world where you're only surrounded by tech workers your whole world might become tech with an occasional ring from the food delivery man the only contact with the outside world. I've never been in silicon valley but that's how I imagine it to be.
caskstrength 4y ago
> Google has more TVCs (temps, vendors, and contractors) than FTEs. By a good margin. Most of these people work 40 hours a week at Google. They do everything from kitchen work to program management to software engineering. They are often embedded in teams of FTEs and sit side by side with them. Yet Google leadership says that they’re not employees and they shouldn’t be. They don’t do work that’s part of Google’s “core competencies” or is “critical to Google’s mission”. "Contractor" is not a caste. These people are not born into it, they can apply for permanent position whenever they want. Like everybody else. > What a load of horseshit. It’s an excuse to underpay and ignore 55% of your workforce If they can't find better paying job, then that is exactly how much they worth on the job market. It is not like google has a monopoly on "program management to software engineering" jobs in California, right?
- hansvm 3y ago
  If Google doesn't like the union's terms they can refuse to renew those contracts. If they can't find cheaper, less needy workers then that is exactly how much they're valued on the job market. It's not like those contractors have a monopoly on providing labor to Google.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  Meritocracy and free market economics. Although "if you don't like it, then leave" is a false dichotomy and no way to run any institution
  - Dracophoenix 3y ago
    What makes "if you don't like it, then leave" a false dichotomy? Every free association between or among people is predicated upon a cost-benefit analysis of whether to stay or go.
    - zamnos 3y ago
      because there's a third option - stay but change the situation somehow. But by ignoring that third option, and presenting only two, that's the dichotomy, but one that isn't real, because there's a third way.

by habosa 4y ago

kethinov 4y ago

Can confirm. I was one such member of this underclass working as a developer on Gmail in 2007. The pay was quite low by bay area developer job standards at $25/hr with no benefits. I loved the work, the product, the people, my boss, the atmosphere of the Google campus in Mountain View, the free meals, etc, but I only stayed for a month. Once I got a better offer that paid twice as much, I was gone. To this day it's such a weird story to tell people. "You worked at Google?" "Yeah." "For how long?" "A month." "Whoa, really? Why? What happened?" "The pay was really low so I left for a higher paying job." "Google's pay... was too low...?" They say with disbelief. "Yep."

techie128 3y ago
You didn't work at Google. You CONTRACTED for Google. There is a BIG difference. Whenever someone claims they worked a company, the implicit assumption is that they were a FTE. I bet if you would've told people that you contracted at Google, their reaction would certainly be different.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  Meh, I think that varies quite a lot. If the only functional difference between your duties and that of the the rest of your team is your paperwork, then you worked there. The only time I specify whether something on my resume was a particular type of arrangement like contracting is if it would be weirdly short.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- esperent 3y ago
  Contract work is work. Especially when it's full time. I don't get why you're trying to make a distinction here?
  - j33zusjuice 3y ago
    Because everyone knows about that situation with contract positions. He did work at Google, and if he added that it was through a contractor when explaining that the salary was too low, people would not be confused.

birdymcbird 4y ago

>>> It’s an excuse to underpay and ignore 55% of your workforce. google isnt walmart or big business killing small store.. this comment like these people have no other job to work if google killed every other company and holding these workers hostage.

heavyset_go 4y ago
All tech companies do this, so "choice" is more limited than you're implying.
kentrado 4y ago
Economic circumstances can keep people hostage.

jeswin 4y ago

Sorry, I don't agree. I've been a contractor for 2 decades (including on a Google project a very long time ago). It's a choice you make, and I'm quite happy with mine. There are of course upsides and downsides. If you want to join Google full-time, then you could apply for a full-time position there. If you don't like being a contractor at Google, then don't be one.

eesmith 4y ago
If there are downsides, do you ever try to change them? Your argument seems to be you should be a good little employee and never complain and never do anything to improve your work life, because your sole choice is to let your bosses dictate things, or leave. And it would seem you believe this so strongly that you want others to voluntarily reject legal opportunities they have to try and improve their work life. It seems your approach would only work for people like you who are quite happy with their job, while making a lot more people miserable.
- the_overseer 3y ago
  Crab mentality is quite widespread in USA for some reason. "If you don't like it quit". Why not "If we don't like it then lets band together and unionize and get better terms on our deal" ?
  - LeanderK 3y ago
    I think it might also be the privilege of software engineers speaking. You can literally get another job, a permanent position with benefits, if you're unhappy with your current position. You probably just have to change your linkedin status, write a few former colleagues or tell it the world via twitter. This is not possible if you're working in the kitchen or cleaning. Sucks for you, right? You must be in this situation because you've chosen it, you can just switch jobs otherwise. In a world where you're only surrounded by tech workers your whole world might become tech with an occasional ring from the food delivery man the only contact with the outside world. I've never been in silicon valley but that's how I imagine it to be.

caskstrength 4y ago

> Google has more TVCs (temps, vendors, and contractors) than FTEs. By a good margin. Most of these people work 40 hours a week at Google. They do everything from kitchen work to program management to software engineering. They are often embedded in teams of FTEs and sit side by side with them. Yet Google leadership says that they’re not employees and they shouldn’t be. They don’t do work that’s part of Google’s “core competencies” or is “critical to Google’s mission”. "Contractor" is not a caste. These people are not born into it, they can apply for permanent position whenever they want. Like everybody else. > What a load of horseshit. It’s an excuse to underpay and ignore 55% of your workforce If they can't find better paying job, then that is exactly how much they worth on the job market. It is not like google has a monopoly on "program management to software engineering" jobs in California, right?

hansvm 3y ago
If Google doesn't like the union's terms they can refuse to renew those contracts. If they can't find cheaper, less needy workers then that is exactly how much they're valued on the job market. It's not like those contractors have a monopoly on providing labor to Google.
hackernewds 3y ago
Meritocracy and free market economics. Although "if you don't like it, then leave" is a false dichotomy and no way to run any institution
- Dracophoenix 3y ago
  What makes "if you don't like it, then leave" a false dichotomy? Every free association between or among people is predicated upon a cost-benefit analysis of whether to stay or go.
  - zamnos 3y ago
    because there's a third option - stay but change the situation somehow. But by ignoring that third option, and presenting only two, that's the dichotomy, but one that isn't real, because there's a third way.