5 ms·

the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufactu

the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufacturers just don't care enough to make them better. they're too busy charging more for touchscreens while saving tons of money on buttons, which are expensive in comparison.

anamexis 4y ago
You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  > You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well. that's not a given at all. maybe for computer keyboards I guess, but not for cars. car makers always seem to want buttons to be flush with their surroundings and have no bumps or dips on them to help you find the button you're after. I always have to look for the button if it isn't on my steering wheel, and I usually have to look when it's there as well. the only control in my car I don't ever need my eyes to find and use is the volume knob for the entertainment system. maybe the hazard button, too, but I haven't needed to push it yet.
  - jojobas 4y ago
    I just checked and I could reach and operate aircon knobs (3x), radio volume and phone answer/hangup buttons without looking, fast. Granted most of these are on the wheel, but even aircon controls would be a no go on a touchscreen.
    - icedistilled 4y ago
      turning on and adjusting the defroster on a ford edge rental is insanely dangerous. turning on the defroster to full blast takes one touch screen yes, but no one leaves it on full blast. Adjusting the fan speed requires poking a small icon in order to get a slider to pop up and then poking the narrow slider in just the right place. It's crazy that's replaced physical controls. Poking a large physical button and then turning a large knob can be done blind folded in half a second.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      IMO there's a lot to be said for a well done knob. It sticks out, so is easy to find with your hand without having to search. As long as you don't have so many that it can be ambiguous. I'm a fan of the climate knobs on my F250, which for example turn the temperature up and down incrementally, but it has a momentary switch at the end of the travel so you can just spin it until it hits that, then spin just a little more against the switch and it'll turn the entire climate system in max heating or max cooling. I remember the first time everyone decided we should have buttons for volume instead of knobs. Thankfully that lesson was learned. Now we do the same for touchscreens. They have their moments, but knobs and well-designed buttons are not replaceable with a touchscreen. No matter how much haptic feedback it might have.
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        One nice thing about buttons instead of knobs is that buttons don't get that annoying thing where they will start randomly skipping forward and back when you turn them.
  - kolinko 4y ago
    It really depends on a car. Camaro has possibly the best knobs for changing stations and AC I've ever seen. The AC ones are integrated with two air outlets in the center - they are big, distinguishable and I could find them blindfolded with no problem. Mini is not as good, but also similar - all the important buttons are physical and distinguishable easily.
amluto 4y ago
Can you explain? Mac trackpads can be delightful, but they’re delightful when the user is looking at the screen. Which is a bad idea when driving.
- jsjohnst 4y ago
  I believe what GP meant is the feedback they offer. Do you think the Magic Trackpad moves? Hint it doesn’t, the “click” you feel is a haptic feedback motor.
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    yes, that's what I was trying to say, thank you. there is no reason that a light touch couldn't produce haptic feedback as you move your finger around, so you can feel where buttons are, and when you find the button you want you simply remove your finger and tap again. not immediately intuitive, no, but not difficult to learn. as usual, a tap on a button at any time would simply press the button. i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. I feel like there's a lot of unexplored stuff with regards to touch screens with haptic feedback.
    - jsjohnst 4y ago
      > i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. Oh, it is! Just nothing of substance has made it into mass market shipping that I’ve seen.
Moto7451 4y ago
My Porsche’s console touchscreen has a Force Touch equivalent
nemo44x 4y ago
Touchscreens are 2d surfaces. I need my fingers to grip a thing in a static place in many cases.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  That's fine. Buttons are good and well-understood. I suspect that for myself, a fixed knob or set of fixed physical buttons is not the only interface that I could use without looking. I'd like to see more experimentation, here. I feel like there's unexplored territory.

anamexis 4y ago

You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.

naikrovek 4y ago
> You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well. that's not a given at all. maybe for computer keyboards I guess, but not for cars. car makers always seem to want buttons to be flush with their surroundings and have no bumps or dips on them to help you find the button you're after. I always have to look for the button if it isn't on my steering wheel, and I usually have to look when it's there as well. the only control in my car I don't ever need my eyes to find and use is the volume knob for the entertainment system. maybe the hazard button, too, but I haven't needed to push it yet.
- jojobas 4y ago
  I just checked and I could reach and operate aircon knobs (3x), radio volume and phone answer/hangup buttons without looking, fast. Granted most of these are on the wheel, but even aircon controls would be a no go on a touchscreen.
  - icedistilled 4y ago
    turning on and adjusting the defroster on a ford edge rental is insanely dangerous. turning on the defroster to full blast takes one touch screen yes, but no one leaves it on full blast. Adjusting the fan speed requires poking a small icon in order to get a slider to pop up and then poking the narrow slider in just the right place. It's crazy that's replaced physical controls. Poking a large physical button and then turning a large knob can be done blind folded in half a second.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    IMO there's a lot to be said for a well done knob. It sticks out, so is easy to find with your hand without having to search. As long as you don't have so many that it can be ambiguous. I'm a fan of the climate knobs on my F250, which for example turn the temperature up and down incrementally, but it has a momentary switch at the end of the travel so you can just spin it until it hits that, then spin just a little more against the switch and it'll turn the entire climate system in max heating or max cooling. I remember the first time everyone decided we should have buttons for volume instead of knobs. Thankfully that lesson was learned. Now we do the same for touchscreens. They have their moments, but knobs and well-designed buttons are not replaceable with a touchscreen. No matter how much haptic feedback it might have.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      One nice thing about buttons instead of knobs is that buttons don't get that annoying thing where they will start randomly skipping forward and back when you turn them.
- kolinko 4y ago
  It really depends on a car. Camaro has possibly the best knobs for changing stations and AC I've ever seen. The AC ones are integrated with two air outlets in the center - they are big, distinguishable and I could find them blindfolded with no problem. Mini is not as good, but also similar - all the important buttons are physical and distinguishable easily.

amluto 4y ago

Can you explain? Mac trackpads can be delightful, but they’re delightful when the user is looking at the screen. Which is a bad idea when driving.

jsjohnst 4y ago
I believe what GP meant is the feedback they offer. Do you think the Magic Trackpad moves? Hint it doesn’t, the “click” you feel is a haptic feedback motor.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  yes, that's what I was trying to say, thank you. there is no reason that a light touch couldn't produce haptic feedback as you move your finger around, so you can feel where buttons are, and when you find the button you want you simply remove your finger and tap again. not immediately intuitive, no, but not difficult to learn. as usual, a tap on a button at any time would simply press the button. i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. I feel like there's a lot of unexplored stuff with regards to touch screens with haptic feedback.
  - jsjohnst 4y ago
    > i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. Oh, it is! Just nothing of substance has made it into mass market shipping that I’ve seen.

Moto7451 4y ago

My Porsche’s console touchscreen has a Force Touch equivalent

nemo44x 4y ago

Touchscreens are 2d surfaces. I need my fingers to grip a thing in a static place in many cases.

naikrovek 4y ago
That's fine. Buttons are good and well-understood. I suspect that for myself, a fixed knob or set of fixed physical buttons is not the only interface that I could use without looking. I'd like to see more experimentation, here. I feel like there's unexplored territory.