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Good luck. They tried to block it in Russia, but it simply broke their own internet for a while and the effectiveness was spotty until they gave up. To this day

Good luck. They tried to block it in Russia, but it simply broke their own internet for a while and the effectiveness was spotty until they gave up. To this day I believe there is quite little cooperation between the Russian government and Telegram, despite not being E2EE by default, if we don't consider conspiracy theories, unlike all the other services used in Russia which are basically all backdoored by the state directly. I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine?

kelnos 4y ago
> I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine? I'm sure they are banking on the idea that Telegram cares more about having users in Brazil than about the money. The Brazilian government can decide not to unblock Telegram until they pay the fines. Of course, if it's that difficult to block Telegram as you suggest, they may eventually give up on both the fines and the blocking.
- zamnos 4y ago
  It's not about the money. The fines are because Telegram won't reveal who's operating (neo-Nazi) accounts on their platform, with an added bit of political shenanigans to muddy the waters on top of it.
pmeira 4y ago
Last year when something like this happened, it came out that there's a legal representative in Rio: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2022/02/telegram-has-had-a-representative-in-brazil-for-7-years-while-ignoring-supreme-court-and-electoral-court.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2022/0...
- buitreVirtual 4y ago
  So they can talk to the representatives. They cannot make them remove the app.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Can't they also throw the representative in jail (etc)?
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      They can, and they have. Big Tech representatives in the country have been jailed for not fully complying with court orders. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-executive-released-from-jail-in-brazil/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-executive-released-fro... Google representatives too, if I remember correctly. Something to do with Google not erasing some celebrity's leaked nude photos from search results.
      - suslik 4y ago
        Jailing people for that is beyond horrible. Why would anyone want to appoint a legal representative in a country that does things like that, I have no idea.
        matheusmoreira 4y ago
        I have no idea why these corporations come here either. Only reason I haven't left this place behind is my family refused to leave with me. They must be making truckloads of money if they put up with this. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/brazilian-court-orders-arrest-of-google-official-over-youtube-video/2012/09/26/d585ae58-07df-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/brazilian... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrest-google-brazil-head-stirs-debate-over-210814484--finance.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrest-google-brazil-head-sti... https://www.theverge.com/2012/9/26/3413476/google-brazil-you-tube-arrest https://www.theverge.com/2012/9/26/3413476/google-brazil-you... https://observer.com/2012/09/brazil-google-president-mayoral-candidate-youtube/ https://observer.com/2012/09/brazil-google-president-mayoral... https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/google-exec-detained-in-brazil-over-youtube-case-1.1213974 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/google-exec-detained-in-braz... https://thenextweb.com/news/googles-president-brazil-operations-arrested-company-failed-remove-youtube-videos https://thenextweb.com/news/googles-president-brazil-operati...
karp773 4y ago
"Blocking" in Russia was nothing else than an internal drill by KGB to check robustness to possible blocking in the target fields of operations, e.g. Brazil. If Russia TRULY wanted to block Telegram, then Mr. Durov, who accidentally operates from and resides in Russia, would have been kidnapped and tortured until Telegram goes down or he hands the keys over to KGB. Since Durov is still alive and free... the conclusion is kind of obvious.
- jimbobimbo 4y ago
  Durov lives in Dubai.
- mehanig 4y ago
  Durov don't operate from Russia and wasn't operating during those "blockings", so this theory does not hold up.
  - esperent 4y ago
    Durov operates from the UAE which is a strong ally of Russia (despite them spending a lot of money to convince people otherwise). It's not like he emigrated to Europe or something.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      Calling the UAE a Russian ally is a massive stretch. They're not allied with the US nor Russia, they're allied with their big neighbours, Saudi Arabia, and have good relationships with many important countries (US, Russia, India, etc.) but don't follow anyone's line (outside of Saudi Arabia and it cost them dearly in Yemen, so they probably don't anymore) near-automatically. Lots of Russians in the UAE, including running away from Putin's folly/conscription.
      - esperent 4y ago
        > Calling the UAE a Russian ally is a massive stretch. No, it is not. Of course they look out for themselves first. However, in this time of war and international sanctions they are one of the countries who are deepening their ties with Russia. They are spending a lot of money on PR to make it seem like they are on the side of the west, but in actual fact they have been profiting massively from Russia over the last few years. They may not be a military ally but they are certainly an economic ally of Russia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93United_Arab_Emirates_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93United_Arab_E... > Even though Russia invaded Ukraine, business between the two countries strengthened and many Russian businessmen has flocked to Dubai to purchase properties and invest in the region. Trade between the two countries has doubled to $5 billion over the last three years and they are approximately 4,000 companies with Russian roots that are operating within the country.[8] > According to the leaked confidential US documents,[9] titled “Russia/UAE: Intelligence Relationship Deepening”, the Russian intelligence officials were engaged in strengthening their relations with the United Arab Emirates. The document stated that Russia had convinced the Emirates “to work together against US and UK intelligence agencies”. It also concluded that the UAE viewed it as an “opportunity” to diversify its partnerships, while the US was gradually parting ways from the Emirates. However, the UAE government had dismissed the accusations that they were maintaining close ties with Russian intelligence.[10]
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine? You're commenting on the news of their enforcement. They are completely fine with blocking Telegram nation-wide until they reveal the user data and pay the fine. Don't give me that "good luck" speech either. The article mentions the same judges blocked Telegram last year. I submitted news of that here and people here gave me the exact same "lol good luck telegram didn't even submit to Russia" response. A few days later I got the news that Telegram paid the fine.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Paying the fine could be a reasonable decision, depending on their priorities. Paying the fine and providing the user data basically renders the whole service pointless, right? It is better to be blocked in Brazil than to be useless everywhere I guess.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    > Paying the fine and providing the user data basically renders the whole service pointless, right? It is better to be blocked in Brazil than to be useless everywhere I guess. I would hope so. Apparently not.
  - germanier 4y ago
    Although Telegram still claims > To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments. https://telegram.org/faq https://telegram.org/faq and the Telegram transparency bot states when queried from Germany > No transparency report is available for your region. If any IP addresses or phone numbers are shared in accordance with 8.3 of the Privacy Policy, we will publish a transparency report within 6 months of it happening and will continue publishing semiannual reports. German prosecutors seem to have received such information > There were then some direct talks between representatives of the Ministry of Interior and the Telegram founder and boss, the Russian Pavel Durov. It was said that a willingness to cooperate was signaled. Telegram even named a direct contact person for the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA). ... The BKA has requested such data as email or IP addresses in "230 exemplary cases" so far. Only in slightly more than 60 cases was there even a response, and only in 25 cases was data actually transmitted. translated from https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/wdr/telegram-justiz-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/wdr/telegram-justiz-1... So someone is lying and I doubt it's the German government which is trying to pressure them to give up even more data.
vitorgrs 4y ago
Since last year Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil.
stefan_ 4y ago
It's a nice story, the founder in exile fighting to keep his unrestricted messaging service, even against the fangs of an authoritarian government that regularly outright murders people around the world. A history of some technical sloppyness, we overlook it as "growth hacking". I'm afraid believing in that is about as smart as those criminals were trusting EncroChat.
xinayder 4y ago
They can and they have blocked it. There's a law for the internet in Brazil, called Marco Civil, which literally states that ISPs can be blocked and forbidden from providing services if they don't comply with takedown requests issued by the authorities. They were blocked quite a few times in the past 4-5 years. If I remember correctly there was a time that it was blocked for up to 2 days because they were deciding if they should pay the fine and hand over the data, or remain blocked. I totally disagree with these rulings in favor of blocking social media apps (even though it could do us good by banning or difficulting disinformation from reaching people), but you do realize that Telegram is not the app it used to be or should be anymore, right? Pavel Durov, its CEO, is an absolute weirdo that tries to play god because he owns huge social media platforms, one of them being VK, which is heavily monitored by the Russian government. So, if you think you are safe using Telegram, think again.
- eitland 4y ago
  > Pavel Durov, its CEO, is an absolute weirdo that tries to play god because he owns huge social media platforms, one of them being VK, which is heavily monitored by the Russian government. VK was stolen from him and given to people who were friends with the regime. So yes, VK is heavily monitored and controlled by Russian authorities and it seems a good deal of effort went into preventing that from happening again.
azangru 4y ago
> To this day I believe there is quite little cooperation between the Russian government and Telegram I find it fascinating that Telegram is (and was back when they tried to block it) the most popular messenger and possibly even social network in Russia. Dmitry Medvedev, for crying out loud, writes his thuggish notes on Telegram, from which they then get propagated by mass media. Ramzan Kadyrov, too, posts to Telegram. It's so embarrassing to see after their attempt to block it for some reason.

kelnos 4y ago

> I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine? I'm sure they are banking on the idea that Telegram cares more about having users in Brazil than about the money. The Brazilian government can decide not to unblock Telegram until they pay the fines. Of course, if it's that difficult to block Telegram as you suggest, they may eventually give up on both the fines and the blocking.

zamnos 4y ago
It's not about the money. The fines are because Telegram won't reveal who's operating (neo-Nazi) accounts on their platform, with an added bit of political shenanigans to muddy the waters on top of it.

pmeira 4y ago

Last year when something like this happened, it came out that there's a legal representative in Rio: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2022/02/telegram-has-had-a-representative-in-brazil-for-7-years-while-ignoring-supreme-court-and-electoral-court.shtml https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2022/0...

buitreVirtual 4y ago
So they can talk to the representatives. They cannot make them remove the app.
- justinclift 4y ago
  Can't they also throw the representative in jail (etc)?
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    They can, and they have. Big Tech representatives in the country have been jailed for not fully complying with court orders. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-executive-released-from-jail-in-brazil/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-executive-released-fro... Google representatives too, if I remember correctly. Something to do with Google not erasing some celebrity's leaked nude photos from search results.
    - suslik 4y ago
      Jailing people for that is beyond horrible. Why would anyone want to appoint a legal representative in a country that does things like that, I have no idea.
      - matheusmoreira 4y ago
        I have no idea why these corporations come here either. Only reason I haven't left this place behind is my family refused to leave with me. They must be making truckloads of money if they put up with this. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/brazilian-court-orders-arrest-of-google-official-over-youtube-video/2012/09/26/d585ae58-07df-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/brazilian... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrest-google-brazil-head-stirs-debate-over-210814484--finance.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrest-google-brazil-head-sti... https://www.theverge.com/2012/9/26/3413476/google-brazil-you-tube-arrest https://www.theverge.com/2012/9/26/3413476/google-brazil-you... https://observer.com/2012/09/brazil-google-president-mayoral-candidate-youtube/ https://observer.com/2012/09/brazil-google-president-mayoral... https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/google-exec-detained-in-brazil-over-youtube-case-1.1213974 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/google-exec-detained-in-braz... https://thenextweb.com/news/googles-president-brazil-operations-arrested-company-failed-remove-youtube-videos https://thenextweb.com/news/googles-president-brazil-operati...

karp773 4y ago

"Blocking" in Russia was nothing else than an internal drill by KGB to check robustness to possible blocking in the target fields of operations, e.g. Brazil. If Russia TRULY wanted to block Telegram, then Mr. Durov, who accidentally operates from and resides in Russia, would have been kidnapped and tortured until Telegram goes down or he hands the keys over to KGB. Since Durov is still alive and free... the conclusion is kind of obvious.

jimbobimbo 4y ago
Durov lives in Dubai.
mehanig 4y ago
Durov don't operate from Russia and wasn't operating during those "blockings", so this theory does not hold up.
- esperent 4y ago
  Durov operates from the UAE which is a strong ally of Russia (despite them spending a lot of money to convince people otherwise). It's not like he emigrated to Europe or something.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Calling the UAE a Russian ally is a massive stretch. They're not allied with the US nor Russia, they're allied with their big neighbours, Saudi Arabia, and have good relationships with many important countries (US, Russia, India, etc.) but don't follow anyone's line (outside of Saudi Arabia and it cost them dearly in Yemen, so they probably don't anymore) near-automatically. Lots of Russians in the UAE, including running away from Putin's folly/conscription.
    - esperent 4y ago
      > Calling the UAE a Russian ally is a massive stretch. No, it is not. Of course they look out for themselves first. However, in this time of war and international sanctions they are one of the countries who are deepening their ties with Russia. They are spending a lot of money on PR to make it seem like they are on the side of the west, but in actual fact they have been profiting massively from Russia over the last few years. They may not be a military ally but they are certainly an economic ally of Russia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93United_Arab_Emirates_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93United_Arab_E... > Even though Russia invaded Ukraine, business between the two countries strengthened and many Russian businessmen has flocked to Dubai to purchase properties and invest in the region. Trade between the two countries has doubled to $5 billion over the last three years and they are approximately 4,000 companies with Russian roots that are operating within the country.[8] > According to the leaked confidential US documents,[9] titled “Russia/UAE: Intelligence Relationship Deepening”, the Russian intelligence officials were engaged in strengthening their relations with the United Arab Emirates. The document stated that Russia had convinced the Emirates “to work together against US and UK intelligence agencies”. It also concluded that the UAE viewed it as an “opportunity” to diversify its partnerships, while the US was gradually parting ways from the Emirates. However, the UAE government had dismissed the accusations that they were maintaining close ties with Russian intelligence.[10]

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine? You're commenting on the news of their enforcement. They are completely fine with blocking Telegram nation-wide until they reveal the user data and pay the fine. Don't give me that "good luck" speech either. The article mentions the same judges blocked Telegram last year. I submitted news of that here and people here gave me the exact same "lol good luck telegram didn't even submit to Russia" response. A few days later I got the news that Telegram paid the fine.

bee_rider 4y ago
Paying the fine could be a reasonable decision, depending on their priorities. Paying the fine and providing the user data basically renders the whole service pointless, right? It is better to be blocked in Brazil than to be useless everywhere I guess.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > Paying the fine and providing the user data basically renders the whole service pointless, right? It is better to be blocked in Brazil than to be useless everywhere I guess. I would hope so. Apparently not.
- germanier 4y ago
  Although Telegram still claims > To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments. https://telegram.org/faq https://telegram.org/faq and the Telegram transparency bot states when queried from Germany > No transparency report is available for your region. If any IP addresses or phone numbers are shared in accordance with 8.3 of the Privacy Policy, we will publish a transparency report within 6 months of it happening and will continue publishing semiannual reports. German prosecutors seem to have received such information > There were then some direct talks between representatives of the Ministry of Interior and the Telegram founder and boss, the Russian Pavel Durov. It was said that a willingness to cooperate was signaled. Telegram even named a direct contact person for the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA). ... The BKA has requested such data as email or IP addresses in "230 exemplary cases" so far. Only in slightly more than 60 cases was there even a response, and only in 25 cases was data actually transmitted. translated from https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/wdr/telegram-justiz-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/wdr/telegram-justiz-1... So someone is lying and I doubt it's the German government which is trying to pressure them to give up even more data.

vitorgrs 4y ago

Since last year Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil.

stefan_ 4y ago

It's a nice story, the founder in exile fighting to keep his unrestricted messaging service, even against the fangs of an authoritarian government that regularly outright murders people around the world. A history of some technical sloppyness, we overlook it as "growth hacking". I'm afraid believing in that is about as smart as those criminals were trusting EncroChat.

xinayder 4y ago

They can and they have blocked it. There's a law for the internet in Brazil, called Marco Civil, which literally states that ISPs can be blocked and forbidden from providing services if they don't comply with takedown requests issued by the authorities. They were blocked quite a few times in the past 4-5 years. If I remember correctly there was a time that it was blocked for up to 2 days because they were deciding if they should pay the fine and hand over the data, or remain blocked. I totally disagree with these rulings in favor of blocking social media apps (even though it could do us good by banning or difficulting disinformation from reaching people), but you do realize that Telegram is not the app it used to be or should be anymore, right? Pavel Durov, its CEO, is an absolute weirdo that tries to play god because he owns huge social media platforms, one of them being VK, which is heavily monitored by the Russian government. So, if you think you are safe using Telegram, think again.

eitland 4y ago
> Pavel Durov, its CEO, is an absolute weirdo that tries to play god because he owns huge social media platforms, one of them being VK, which is heavily monitored by the Russian government. VK was stolen from him and given to people who were friends with the regime. So yes, VK is heavily monitored and controlled by Russian authorities and it seems a good deal of effort went into preventing that from happening again.

azangru 4y ago

> To this day I believe there is quite little cooperation between the Russian government and Telegram I find it fascinating that Telegram is (and was back when they tried to block it) the most popular messenger and possibly even social network in Russia. Dmitry Medvedev, for crying out loud, writes his thuggish notes on Telegram, from which they then get propagated by mass media. Ramzan Kadyrov, too, posts to Telegram. It's so embarrassing to see after their attempt to block it for some reason.