4 ms·

I disagree. With a physical button, you know you pushed it because you feel it give and then stop giving. After the first couple of uses you can get used to a

I disagree. With a physical button, you know you pushed it because you feel it give and then stop giving. After the first couple of uses you can get used to any response time. With a touchscreen, there is no tactile feedback difference between a button press and a miss. So when you press it and it doesn't do anything, or behaves unexpectedly, you don't know if it is lagging or you missed. Touchscreens are much worse for drivers.

naikrovek 3y ago
the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufacturers just don't care enough to make them better. they're too busy charging more for touchscreens while saving tons of money on buttons, which are expensive in comparison.
- anamexis 3y ago
  You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.
  - naikrovek 3y ago
    > You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well. that's not a given at all. maybe for computer keyboards I guess, but not for cars. car makers always seem to want buttons to be flush with their surroundings and have no bumps or dips on them to help you find the button you're after. I always have to look for the button if it isn't on my steering wheel, and I usually have to look when it's there as well. the only control in my car I don't ever need my eyes to find and use is the volume knob for the entertainment system. maybe the hazard button, too, but I haven't needed to push it yet.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I just checked and I could reach and operate aircon knobs (3x), radio volume and phone answer/hangup buttons without looking, fast. Granted most of these are on the wheel, but even aircon controls would be a no go on a touchscreen.
      - icedistilled 3y ago
        turning on and adjusting the defroster on a ford edge rental is insanely dangerous. turning on the defroster to full blast takes one touch screen yes, but no one leaves it on full blast. Adjusting the fan speed requires poking a small icon in order to get a slider to pop up and then poking the narrow slider in just the right place. It's crazy that's replaced physical controls. Poking a large physical button and then turning a large knob can be done blind folded in half a second.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        IMO there's a lot to be said for a well done knob. It sticks out, so is easy to find with your hand without having to search. As long as you don't have so many that it can be ambiguous. I'm a fan of the climate knobs on my F250, which for example turn the temperature up and down incrementally, but it has a momentary switch at the end of the travel so you can just spin it until it hits that, then spin just a little more against the switch and it'll turn the entire climate system in max heating or max cooling. I remember the first time everyone decided we should have buttons for volume instead of knobs. Thankfully that lesson was learned. Now we do the same for touchscreens. They have their moments, but knobs and well-designed buttons are not replaceable with a touchscreen. No matter how much haptic feedback it might have.
        anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        One nice thing about buttons instead of knobs is that buttons don't get that annoying thing where they will start randomly skipping forward and back when you turn them.
    - kolinko 3y ago
- amluto 3y ago
  Can you explain? Mac trackpads can be delightful, but they’re delightful when the user is looking at the screen. Which is a bad idea when driving.
  - jsjohnst 3y ago
    I believe what GP meant is the feedback they offer. Do you think the Magic Trackpad moves? Hint it doesn’t, the “click” you feel is a haptic feedback motor.
    - naikrovek 3y ago
      yes, that's what I was trying to say, thank you. there is no reason that a light touch couldn't produce haptic feedback as you move your finger around, so you can feel where buttons are, and when you find the button you want you simply remove your finger and tap again. not immediately intuitive, no, but not difficult to learn. as usual, a tap on a button at any time would simply press the button. i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. I feel like there's a lot of unexplored stuff with regards to touch screens with haptic feedback.
      - jsjohnst 3y ago
        > i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. Oh, it is! Just nothing of substance has made it into mass market shipping that I’ve seen.
- Moto7451 3y ago
  My Porsche’s console touchscreen has a Force Touch equivalent
- nemo44x 3y ago
  Touchscreens are 2d surfaces. I need my fingers to grip a thing in a static place in many cases.
  - naikrovek 3y ago
    That's fine. Buttons are good and well-understood. I suspect that for myself, a fixed knob or set of fixed physical buttons is not the only interface that I could use without looking. I'd like to see more experimentation, here. I feel like there's unexplored territory.
magicalhippo 3y ago
And with a physical button I don't have to look to push it. I know roughly where it is and I can use touch to orient myself.
NiloCK 3y ago
When slow response times are because of software, they not only slow but variable. If you're accustomed to 90ms delay and the adjustment doesn't come in 250ms, then it pulls your attention, and even your eyes. "What's wrong with my volume knob" shouldn't occur to someone driving a vehicle.

naikrovek 3y ago

the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufacturers just don't care enough to make them better. they're too busy charging more for touchscreens while saving tons of money on buttons, which are expensive in comparison.

anamexis 3y ago
You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.
- naikrovek 3y ago
  > You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well. that's not a given at all. maybe for computer keyboards I guess, but not for cars. car makers always seem to want buttons to be flush with their surroundings and have no bumps or dips on them to help you find the button you're after. I always have to look for the button if it isn't on my steering wheel, and I usually have to look when it's there as well. the only control in my car I don't ever need my eyes to find and use is the volume knob for the entertainment system. maybe the hazard button, too, but I haven't needed to push it yet.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    I just checked and I could reach and operate aircon knobs (3x), radio volume and phone answer/hangup buttons without looking, fast. Granted most of these are on the wheel, but even aircon controls would be a no go on a touchscreen.
    - icedistilled 3y ago
      turning on and adjusting the defroster on a ford edge rental is insanely dangerous. turning on the defroster to full blast takes one touch screen yes, but no one leaves it on full blast. Adjusting the fan speed requires poking a small icon in order to get a slider to pop up and then poking the narrow slider in just the right place. It's crazy that's replaced physical controls. Poking a large physical button and then turning a large knob can be done blind folded in half a second.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      IMO there's a lot to be said for a well done knob. It sticks out, so is easy to find with your hand without having to search. As long as you don't have so many that it can be ambiguous. I'm a fan of the climate knobs on my F250, which for example turn the temperature up and down incrementally, but it has a momentary switch at the end of the travel so you can just spin it until it hits that, then spin just a little more against the switch and it'll turn the entire climate system in max heating or max cooling. I remember the first time everyone decided we should have buttons for volume instead of knobs. Thankfully that lesson was learned. Now we do the same for touchscreens. They have their moments, but knobs and well-designed buttons are not replaceable with a touchscreen. No matter how much haptic feedback it might have.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        One nice thing about buttons instead of knobs is that buttons don't get that annoying thing where they will start randomly skipping forward and back when you turn them.
  - kolinko 3y ago
amluto 3y ago
Can you explain? Mac trackpads can be delightful, but they’re delightful when the user is looking at the screen. Which is a bad idea when driving.
- jsjohnst 3y ago
  I believe what GP meant is the feedback they offer. Do you think the Magic Trackpad moves? Hint it doesn’t, the “click” you feel is a haptic feedback motor.
  - naikrovek 3y ago
    yes, that's what I was trying to say, thank you. there is no reason that a light touch couldn't produce haptic feedback as you move your finger around, so you can feel where buttons are, and when you find the button you want you simply remove your finger and tap again. not immediately intuitive, no, but not difficult to learn. as usual, a tap on a button at any time would simply press the button. i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. I feel like there's a lot of unexplored stuff with regards to touch screens with haptic feedback.
    - jsjohnst 3y ago
      > i'm a bit sad that experimentation isn't being done, here. Oh, it is! Just nothing of substance has made it into mass market shipping that I’ve seen.
Moto7451 3y ago
My Porsche’s console touchscreen has a Force Touch equivalent
nemo44x 3y ago
Touchscreens are 2d surfaces. I need my fingers to grip a thing in a static place in many cases.
- naikrovek 3y ago
  That's fine. Buttons are good and well-understood. I suspect that for myself, a fixed knob or set of fixed physical buttons is not the only interface that I could use without looking. I'd like to see more experimentation, here. I feel like there's unexplored territory.

magicalhippo 3y ago

And with a physical button I don't have to look to push it. I know roughly where it is and I can use touch to orient myself.

NiloCK 3y ago

When slow response times are because of software, they not only slow but variable. If you're accustomed to 90ms delay and the adjustment doesn't come in 250ms, then it pulls your attention, and even your eyes. "What's wrong with my volume knob" shouldn't occur to someone driving a vehicle.